For those who don't know, Rev. Phelps has appointed himself the voice of a god who advocates hatred of anyone that Phelps disagrees with.
In the post, I mentioned that Phelps claims to be a Democrat, to which blogger buddy ER quickly demanded I supply proof. I will admit now, that I distinctly remembered reading somewhere that he was Democrat, but didn't remember where, but, to appease ER, I did a Google search and found some interesting facts about Reverend Phelps which were not only interesting but highly disturbing.
By the way, he is a Democrat. In fact, he even ran for Governor of Kansas in some primaries, but thankfully, never won the nomination.
Here is some additional information about Phelps I found on the ADL website:
"Trained as a lawyer, Fred Phelps was disbarred in 1979 by the Kansas Supreme Court, which asserted that he had "little regard for the ethics of his profession." The formal complaint against Phelps charged that he misrepresented the truth in a motion for a new trial in a case he had brought, and that he held the defendant in the case up to "unnecessary public ridicule for which there is no basis in fact." Following his disbarment from Kansas State courts, Phelps continued to practice law in Federal courts. In 1985, nine Federal court judges filed a disciplinary complaint charging him and six of his family members, all attorneys, with making false accusations against them. The Phelpses fought the complaint but lost. In 1989, Fred Phelps agreed to surrender his license to practice law in Federal court in exchange for the Federal judges allowing the other members of his family to continue practicing in Federal court."
Here is what Phelps and his followers have to say about gays, blacks, Jews, etc, in their own words:
"The only true Nazis in this world are fags. They want to force you by law to support their filth, and they want to shut you up by law when they hate what you say. They would be perfectly happy to make it a crime to preach that 'God hates fags' under the guise of 'hate speech legislation.' "
-- "FAQ," WBC "Godhatesfags.com" Web site
"It's NOT OK to be gay. It will damn the soul, destroy the life, and doom any nation that tolerates such evil. God Hates Fags is a profound theological statement, which America needs more than it needs oxygen or bread."
-- "WBC to picket UC (Tar Heels) graduation and Binkley Baptist Church," Westboro Baptist Church "News Release,"
May 3, 1999
Actually, I agree with part of that statement. Homosexuality, in my opinion, does damn the soul, destroy life, and seriously effects the morals of the nation that tolerates and normalizes it. I have always said I find it difficult to believe that all the citizens of both Sodom and Gommorah were depraved, but the ones that weren't tolerated the immorality, and that is why God completely destroyed them, the straight along with the gay.
But Phelps is not God, and he does not speak for God!
About Matthew Shepard... "He lived a Satanic lifestyle. He got himself killed trolling for anonymous homosexual sex in a bar at midnight. Unless he repented in the final hours of his life, he is in hell. He will be in hell for all eternity, 'where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.' Mark 9:44. For each day that passes, he has only eternity to look forward to. All the candlelight vigils, all the tributes, all the acts of Congress, all the rulings by the Supreme Court of the United States, will not shorten his sentence by so much as one day. And all the riches of the world will not buy him one drop of water to cool his tongue."
-- "Perpetual Gospel Memorial to Matthew Shepard," WBC "Godhatesfags.com" Web site
"Filthy sodomites crave legitimacy as dogs eating their own vomit & sows wallowing in their own feces crave unconditional love."
-- "Week 344 of the Great Gage Park Decency Drive," WBC "News Release," January 15, 1998
"All gays & lesbians are liars and murderers at heart, like their father, Satan."
-- "____________. A black dyke! An abomination! Clinton & the Senate made her a U.S. Judge!" WBC "News Release," November 24, 1996.
About Jews:
"Fag Jew Nazis are worse than ordinary Nazis. They've had more experience. Jews stirred up the Romans to butcher 6 million Christians in the catacombs in the 1st century. The First Holocaust was a Jewish Holocaust against Christians. The latest Holocaust is by Topeka Jews against WBC..."
-- "Topeka's Dominant Fag Jew Masters are now agitating for: Same-Sex Fag Jew Marriage!" WBC flier, April 19, 1996
"As Hitler controlled the courts, prosecutors and police (Gestapo) in persecuting German Jews, so do Topeka Jews today in persecuting Baptists. As first century Jews stirred up the Roman tyrants in persecuting the primitive church, so do Topeka Jews today stir up Kansas tyrants in persecuting Westboro Baptists. They whine about the Nazi Holocaust, while they perpetrate the Topeka Holocaust."
-- "Topeka's Baptist Holocaust," WBC flier, March 23, 1996
This is what they say about Blacks:
"Anybody babbling about 'multicultural affairs' and 'celebrating diversity' is a propagandist for the militant sodomite agenda...Westboro Baptists will picket this black obfuscator, in religious protest and warning. Being black won't get you to Heaven. But promoting fags will take you to Hell."
-- "WBC Will Picket ___________________, Ph.D. She's a Multicultural, Diversity-Celebrating Blabbermouth," WBC "News Release," November 13, 1996
"Forget the American Bald Eagle. Since June 23, 1994, the only fitting emblem for the Great Seal of the United States Judiciary is this beast...Just call me: 'Yo Honuh'!!!... Here Come De Judge!!!"
--Text surrounding a racist caricature of an African-American female judge, "The Federal Judiciary: A Menagerie of Demonic, Libidinous, unclean Beasts: A Curse from God Upon an Apostate Nation," WBC flier, November 28, 1996
"Me ______________. Me lots smarter now. Me be Deputy Mayor...This crowd could dumb down the Western Hemisphere."
-- Text surrounding a drawing of a gorilla, "Wagnon's 'Friendlier Topeka,'" WBC flier, June 13, 1997. The named individual is an African-American city council member in Topeka, Kansas
"Black Female Dyke ___________ is a child of the Devil, peddling her satanic father's fag lies...She's dangerous because she plays the race card, the female card, & the poor-little-broken-home-orphan card like a fiddle to gullible fools who give her money."
-- "WBC to Picket Pervert ________, & Her Devil's Angels," WBC "News Release," May 20, 1996
On Christians:
"Most 'Christians' today are Christians by name only, and should be ashamed of themselves. They are cowardly, lukewarm, and ashamed of Christ's Word. They have substituted their own pathetic ideas for God's clear commandments... Don't listen to the money-grubbing heretic who stands at the front of your church. Listen to God."
-- "FAQ," WBC "Godhatesfags.com" Web site
This, too, is not completely inaccurate, however, I wouldn't say "Most Christians". I would say "some", and that "some" would definitely include Reverend Phelps and his Congregation/family. And he is right about listening to God. He should follow his own advice.
"Any church that allows fags to be members in good standing is a fag church... Any church that ordains fags is a fag church...Any church that marries fags is a fag church...Churches...like the Southern Baptists and Assembly of God churches are as much to blame as the out of the closet fag churches...Why? Because they have created an atmosphere in this world where people believe the lie that God loves everybody. This soul-damning lie is the reason that fags are so out-spoken today."
-- "Fag Churches," WBC "Godhatesfags.com" Web site
"Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Catholic, Northern and Southern Baptist, Church of Christ, Assembly of God, etc. have all departed from God. Most well-known preachers (Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc.) have departed from God, and disassociated themselves with pure Gospel preaching."
-- "Churches," WBC "Godhatesamerica.com" Web site
About America:
The reason for the violence that has been erupting in the United States of America in recent years is that GOD HATES AMERICA."
-- "Children are their oppressors,"
WBC "Godhatesamerica.com" Web site
"We understand that Iraq is the only Muslim state that allows the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ to be freely and openly preached on the streets without fear of arrest and prosecution. Alas, the United States no longer allows the Gospel to be freely and openly preached on the streets, because militant sodomites now control our government, and they violently object to the Bible message...The same majoritarian sodomite tyranny that now guides the Clinton administration's repressive policies toward Gospel preaching on America's streets, is apparently responsible -- at least in part -- for the merciless slaughter by starvation of 400 innocent Iraqi babies each day in your country. If our government and laws will allow it, and at the invitation of your government, we would like to send a delegation from Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kansas, to preach the Gospel on the streets of Baghdad for one week in the near future."
-- Fred Phelps, in a letter to Saddam Hussein,
November 30, 1997
As anyone can plainly see, Phelps is about two sandwiches short of a picnic. The lights are on, but nobody's home. In short, Reverend Fred Phelps is not a true Baptist. He is no more Christian than he is a Baptist. He is no more Democrat than he is a Christian. If it is possible to categorize him, his ideology more closely aligns with the principles of the Nazi party than Democrat, Republican or Independent.
He has about as much importance as a wad of filthy ABC gum adhering to the sole of my left shoe. If there is anyone anywhere who should be denied the right of free speech, it is he.
31 comments:
That dude is a whack-job.
He's not an (R) or a (D).........He's a (N) --> Nut.
Except that it sort of sounds like you agree with him about queers...
C'mon, Rich. You know what mainstream conservative Christianity says about homosexuality, and Mark is nothing if not a mainstream conservative Christian. And anyone who's reads it knows what the Bible says. The questions are over what the Bible means today.
Aside from that, I don't know why people want to single out homosexuality as the end-all-be-all sin, when the Bible is also pretty clear that "There is none without sin, no not one," and that nothing short of perfection would alleviate anyone of the need for repentance and salvation.
What most of us disagree on is what, exactly, repentance is -- at least, that's what I disagree on with most of mainstream Christianity. Only God knows the heart.
That's why, I think, we are not to judge others' relationship with God too harshly, if at all: Because it's foolish and a waste of time and an insult to God's sovereignty in dealing with people in His own way.
I also argue that the single best place for any gay man, or woman, or any other man, or woman, to be is IN CHURCH, where, if, truly, Jesus is present among the two or three, His quiet voice will most likely be heard. I think I digress. ...
It is entirely possible to agree with Phelps' premise while condemning his tactics. I argue further that it is possible to agree with his premise -- homosexuality is an abomination -- and reject his conclusions -- all homosexuals are going to hell -- again, because only God knows the heart.
--ER
Obviously Phelps is a wack job. Wack jobs also have the right of free speech. But we don't have to listen. Homosexuals like Matthew Shepard need not worry about going to Hell. There is no Hell. This is where Christianity & I part company.
Francis, "Homosexuals like Matthew Shepard need not worry about going to Hell. There is no Hell."
HA! Anyone that believes there is no Hell has never spent the evening with an insurance salesman.
He is an idiot but I still say he has the right to say what he believes, even if what he believes is an illusion and he is a complete idiot. There are plenty of people who agree with him and don’t think he is nuts at all. Just as there are plenty of people out there preaching their own brand who I think are nuts (Dobson, Robertson, Falwell, Limbaugh etc) but again, there are plenty of people out there who agree with them and they have the right to prove to us how retarded they truly are. Who is anyone to say where we draw the line?
Now I don't think he should have ever been able to breed; that is not in the constitution.
ER:
What does everyone who has read the Bible think about Homosexuality? Because anyone who knows anything about Christianity knows that the New Testament is the law Christians are to follow and neither the New Testament nor Jesus ever says anything about Homosexuality, and in fact they say that the "old laws" were invalidated with Jesus' fulfillment of the prophecy.
So, if you are a fundamentalist who doesn't care about what Jesus has to say and you go by the Old Testament alone (Leviticus) then you must also keep a beard, eat Kosher, not work on Saturday’s and stone your kids if they talk back to you.
Maybe that is what you were referring to; just wondering.
Toad, based on your previous personal revelations, showing your general hostility to Christians, and your tendency to attempt to shift discussions -- I said "the Bible," you came back with the NT; all are Christian Scripture; your comment is a good start on another discussion -- I politely decline to engage you on this particular point. My anger at some Christians is as a believer, directed, usually in a constructive spirit, but sometimes not, to other believers. Your dislike for Christian matters is very different, and we do not share it.
--ER
Pastor Tim - I can not accept that an all loving God would create a Hell for his less than perfect creations. If he did create a Hell, than He is not all loving, nor is He all forgiving. Thus, He is either vindictive or less than perfect. Both imply a flawed entity. Even though someone might be thought to deserve Hell, surely God would be not allow eternal damnation for our own flaws.
God is Love, but God is also just.
God said, "God did not asend His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world, through Him would be saved. He that does not believe is condemned already."
In other words, those who refuse to believe consign themselves to everlasting damnation. God doesn't send anyone to Hell, He merely supplied the place for those who prefer, a place to go.
At least, that's the way I understand it.
As for Rev. Phelps, I believe his basic Biblical message is correct. His methods and his hatred are not.
Tim:
You have got to be kidding me!
"Jesus never spoke to homosexuality, because the sin was understood to be so far from acceptable that He didn't need to speak to it."
Apparently the "word of the gospel" has the power to change the Bible as well. If you can find one passage in the New Testament that proves your point any more than you can prove my point that Jesus thinks it's a sin to drive a car or wear slave labor tennis shoes then I will start going to church every Sunday.
ER:
And you wonder why I have something against Christians; they are always making up things that don't exist, projecting their beliefs on to Jesus, assuming they know that Jesus agrees with their beliefs (not vice versa)interpreting text that isn't there and just plain making shit up.
Using your logic I can make the following statements and they have just as much credibility as yours:
Jesus didn't want us to watch TV
Jesus doesn't want music instruments in church
Jesus doesn't want us to eat foods high in unsaturated fats
Jesus thinks people who eat processed cheese are sinners.
Jesus hates fags
Jesus hates Arabs
Jesus hates rich Republicans
Now here are things that are actually in the Bible:
Jesus wants you to give to the poor
Jesus wants you to help the sick
Jesus wants you to care for orphans
Jesus wants you to turn the other cheek when attacked
Jesus wants you to love your enemy as your self
Jesus says rich people will go to hell
No I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you say that homosexuality is a sin only because homosexual marriages aren't recognized by most governments and that if you commit a homosexual sexual act, out of wedlock, that is fornication. So with that in mind, a homosexual who doesn't have intercourse is not a sinner, or a Homosexual who is married in Massachusetts or the Netherlands isn't sinning. Right?
Otherwise your point is moot because you have no way of knowing Jesus’ stance on the subject. And if you claim that you do, you are wrong and will be judged accordingly for putting words in Jesus’ mouth and acting as a false prophet. According to your religion anyway.
Sorry for changing the subject.
Francis:
Now you are thinking; you have exposed one of the many contradictions of the "perfect word of God".
Pastor Tim - "He is all loving the perfect representation of love, even if He sends all of us to hell." He's got a funny way of showing His love, huh? A tough-love guy. If Hell is what you believe, then we are at odds. My God is more compassionate, more loving, I guess. My God accepts saints & sinners, including unrepentant sinners, alike into His realm, despite biblical versions to the contrary. The sinner learns of himself & of God while in His presence. And yes, without a Hell there is no Satan, in the traditional Christian sense of him.
Allow me to distant myself from Pastor Timothy a bit. He is a very very conservative parson. I respect him. But I do not share many of his views.
--ER
Toad, I reread what I wrote, then I reread what you wrote in response, and I don't see how it is a response at all. Enlighten me, if you'd like. I said the Bible said, and most Christians agree, that homosexuality was a sin. So is, like, telling a lie. And I allowed as to how I don't understand why people are hung up on homosexualiuty as if it's the only sin there is. .... I don't understand what you're taking issue with what I said -- unless you simply do not believe that there is such a thing as sin at all. In which case we disagree.
?
(Yes, I couldn't leave it alone, and I may regret it. Caution. Do not ridicule me. Do not attack me. Do so with civility. Speak to me about what I, no one else, has said -- and not what I have not said. Or I just won't play.)
--ER
Well, we agree on most fundamentals, I think, Pastor. We do not agree on how best to live out our faith. But that's OK.
The body of Christ has many parts with many functions. And we do not have to agree. (Maybe I'm a bunyan.) (Oh, one of my bestest friends is one of them other kind of Presbyterians!) And heck, I'm going to a lefty Congregationalist church. How could we not disagree?
--ER
Sheila has it right. And might I say:
If I stepped up and downgraded the words of someone who felt that Christians are just plain evil, and responsible for the ills that befall us all as a society, while still agreeing with them in spirit, though not in practice, you might very well see me as someone who professes towards sanity ostensibly, while really deep down embracing the worst parts of a belief system.
ER-of course Mark believes this. That's what the problem is. He will couch it under some ardent belief in the tribal taboos of ancient Jewish peoples, but let's assume for the moment that he also eats shellfish and wears polyester/wool blends. In short, if it were really about adherence to the bible and not about the Ick Factor, his life would be different.
But he's not, and they are not. They hear what they want to hear, based on their own hatred. In this, he is like most people.
If he was of a more fatuous sort, he would follow up his ignorance with the words "God Bless", which still sounds like 'F--- You' to the rest of us.
Remember when Huricane Katrina hit, and I was trying to send Tug on his way with all the strength he could get? I blessed him, "in as much as people like me ever do that". That is worth ten times what some self satified dude has to say in the way of blessings, because I really mean it.
Someone who hates anyone else of any other religion (and anyone of the same religion who believes in a different manner!), doesn't deserve to be trusted in issues of faith, or any other. Hell, I wish we could prevent them from driving cars.
Yep. Fred Phelps is a fool. He also has the right to say whatever he wants to say, assuming that he does not continue to foment violence against those who he hates, which he almost certainly does.
Mark Maness has the right to believe what he believes, provide he is honest about it, which he generally is.
Pastor Timothy should abandon his loving man of God stance, since he is every bit the ignorant, hateful fool that all of us are, regardless of the cloth.
Bless you all.
Rich, if anyone is hateful it is you. Pastor Tim is a good decent human being. If you continue to come into my place and insult the other commentators i will delete your coments.
You have a great blog, Mark.
Very interesting discussion.
Oh, and there definitely is a Hell. Welcome to my world!
This nut got a lot of run here....He's not worth it.
---------
I'm not a Christian, or any other religion for that matter, and get sick of the religious take on Normos.
They are freaks who've chosen to take a road outside of the norm....I don't buy the "born that way" crap, and even if they are I don't really care.
There's lots of freaks "born that way".....Doesn't make them any more palatable. --> No different than guys who bang sheep.
I don't want them killed, or kicked out of the country.......I just want them to quit trying to get their freakiness to be part of the norm.
Oh, and stay the Hell away from my kids......This is where my .45 draws the line.
Woof. That was a lethal combo of me while drunk and angry, not necessarily at the discussion.
Mea culpa.
Hi Mark,
Letting Phelps speak for himself is a pretty good way to demonstrate that he’s a dangerous extremist, but I was actually curious about one of your comments and wonder if you could elaborate/clarify? Regarding the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah you said,
“I have always said I find it difficult to believe that all the citizens of both Sodom and Gommorah were depraved, but the ones that weren't tolerated the immorality, and that is why God completely destroyed them, the straight along with the gay.”
To me, that sounds rather like you are agreeing with Phelps. If God felt it just to destroy people who had not committed the sin simply because they didn’t stop the people who did, then surely God would only be doing the same thing now by killing American troops because of the sins of America as a whole? It’s also, may I point out, basically the same logic that is used to justify the terrorism that we are currently fighting; guilt by association/there are no innocents/etc.
Dammit, I love Liam.
He made the same point that I was originally making, albeit with far more grace.
Liam, I don't hate Gays. Fred Phelps does. As I stated in a previous comment, I do believe that Phelps' basic Biblical message is correct but his interpretation and methods are wrong.
It is possible to hate the sin, yet love the sinner. God loves everyone, including the sinner. It is for that reason that He sent His Son into the world as stated in the most quoted Bible verse in the world, John 3:16.
I have known and worked with many homosexuals, and thinking back, I can't think of a one that I didn't like personally. The ones I know are funny, good, smart, witty, friendly, and inoffensive people. I like them. I don't like that they are homosexual, I believe that is wrong, just as You might not like someone's political ideology, but still like the person.
Ok my word verification won't let me post this comment even though I am sure I enrered the correct letters. Perhaps God is trying to tell me something? So, I deleted the last paragraph here and will try again now.
Ok Liam, I just looked at your question again and realized i didn't answer your question. What I meant by saying, "but the ones that weren't tolerated the immorality, and that is why God completely destroyed them, the straight along with the gay.” was this: God destroyed Sodom and Gommorah because He could not find as little as 10 righteous people in those 2 cities. I don't believe all the residents were gay, but I do believe they were unrighteous in other ways, as Pero pointed out, "sheep bangers", and so on, and possibly in condoning, accepting, legitimizing, and tolerating the unrighteousness in others, and not attempting to point out to them the error of their ways. Perhaps they feared the stigma of being labeled a bigot for not being politically correct. Who knows? I don't. I can only surmise. It just seems to me to be incredible that everyone of the residents of those two towns were all homosexual.
But That's the way I see it, I could be wrong.
Thanks for taking that second look Mark. I think you are right to doubt that everyone in both towns was homosexual. That seems pretty unlikely. Maybe you should do a little more reading about S&G. To me it sounds like the 'Sin of Sodom' being homosexuality is another of the religous myths that have grown up over the centuries, along the lines of Mary Magdalene being a prostitute. Perhaps check out the Wikipedia article as a starting point?
Yeah, PTimmy, you're overflowing with God's love. You give me the warm fuzzies listening to you talk of your God of harsh judgment and hellfire. If religion is disappearing from America, it's only because it should.
PTimmy honeychild in your heart of hearts in the deep buried place that you don't never show to nobody won't you rejoice when the sinners burn? Won't you shake your head in sorrow but smile to your self to watch their pain? Don't it make you happy now to think of those faggots burning? I'm sure it does PTimmy sweetness. Go right now ahead and say it isn't so if it makes you feel better. Just remember dark calls to dark and I know you good. Your no different from me other than I don't pretend to be a man of god.
Mark, I haven't been reading your blog as much as I should. I intend to read it more and let some others go. A guy only has so much time to spend doing this!
I know this post is an older one and read the last few comments. So I pasted a passage below that gives more insight as to why God destroyed Sodom and Gommorah.
Ezekiel 16:47-49
47"Yet you have not merely walked in their ways or done according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you acted more corruptly in all your conduct than they.
48"As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "Sodom, your sister and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done.
49"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.
I think that anon is actually Screwtape!
No, no, my mistake. The anon is Wormwood. Just a wannabe.
--ER
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