Friday, January 07, 2011

For, Or Against?

"Remember that what you believe will depend very much on what you are." ~ Noah Porter

A Muslim student reveals what she really thinks during a question and answer session following a speech by David Horowitz at The University of California at San Diego:

I believe this indicative of the attitude of the majority of Muslims around the world. Although friend Jim (and other Liberals)would have us believe they are as harmless as your average Baptist Sunday School association, facts don't support his position.

The fact is, Muslims, in general, have been strangely quiet over the years since 9/11 on support or condemnation of terrorist organizations. While most peaceful Muslims refuse to admit support, they also don't admit opposition.

I find that telling.

Before we blindly accept the supposition that most Muslims are peaceful, perhaps we should pose Horowitz's question to them to ascertain exactly their position on the Jews.

"For, or against?"

I wonder. How many of our peaceful Muslim neighbors would answer that question truthfully? And, how many would say, "For"?

In addition, when the big day arrives when militant Muslims arise and attack the Jews and their allies en masse, who will the peaceful Muslims defend? How many of these "peaceful Muslims" would participate?

In the final anaylsis, if we are to err, doesn't it make more sense to err on the side of caution and automatically suspect all Muslims of supporting terror than to blindly accept the possibly dangerous supposition that they are mostly peaceful?


Jim said...

"I believe this indicative of the attitude of the majority of Muslims around the world."

You are entitled to that belief and any belief you want regardless of whether or not it is supported by fact.

Apparently you have never spent any time on a college campus or you would know that it is quite normal for students to be radical and provocative especially when confronting the likes of a David Horowitz (who refuses, BTW to answer the person's question). Those are the students who actually come to these events. ("Don't taz me bro" ring a bell?)

To judge billions of people by the actions of this student is as bigoted as judging all Jews by those of Horowitz.

Edwin Drood said...

The funny things is, if you criticize muslims for being violent they will try to kill you.

Anonymous said...

Hi! I have been reading the old Testament Holy Bible and it seems to me that if a Jew from back then was transported into our time, and went to see a psychiatrist, and the Jew said, "God told me to kill all of those people and take their land" and "God told me to stone that woman to death", etc., you'd see that many so-called Muslim ideas came from the Jews; right?

Edwin Drood said...

wow, Islamic terrorism is the jews fault? Jim was you that you posting.

Jim said...

ED-afflicted, no, anonymous is not me. And I'm pretty sure that what anonymous was saying was that the Jews were way ahead of the Muslims.

Mark said...

Jim. So there are 100's of Muslims in the building where you work, eh? Have you ever asked any of them if they are for or against Jews? If you haven't, then you don't know how they really feel, do you? And if you have, how do you know they're being honest?

Somehow, I don't think even you are so naive as to think they would go against their own raising. As the quotation I prefaced the post with says, what you believe depends very much on what you are.

Jim said...

"Jane, you ignorant slut!"

Ok, where was I? Oh yeah. Your bigotry is exposed. You are assuming that these Muslims (like all Muslims, apparently) are Middle Eastern, Arabic and radical. They are not. For the most part they are Southeast Asians. They have good jobs and are invested in the economy and a peaceful society. They couldn't care less about the Jews one way or another.

"And if you have, how do you know they're being honest?"

Why would I doubt them? Because all Muslims are liars?

Trader Rick said...

This is a chilling video. These are barbaric people right out of the middle ages, right here in the civilized west. At least they lay their murderous intent right out in the open for everyone to see.

Anyone who denies this threat is either a blind moron, or delusional, or is trying to protect them for some evil intent...

"FOR" -sends chills up my spine.

Jim said...

Nobody denies that there is a threat. It's clear and it's real.

The keys are understanding the threat, where it comes from and why, then acting in a rational way to address the threat and protect ourselves and our interests. Suspecting anyone of the Muslim faith is not rational and is counter-productive.

Jim said...

"All Muslims want to kill non-Muslims. They simply will not live in peace with other religions.

Marshall Art said...

That's a wonderful story, Jim. Truly it is. Would you honestly consider it typical or out of the ordinary? I'll answer for you: it's out of the ordinary. In fact, it's down-right rare. What's more, the questions posed to you have to do with Jews. I personally don't think the radicals make a huge distinction, but I wonder if these people would do the same for a synagogue. I would hope so, but I wouldn't put money on it.

In any case, I think Mark has been clear that he does not believe ALL muslims act so hatefully, but that it appears to be a majority. This is based on just how rare such events such as that depicted in your link actually are. It's what most people are waiting for: more muslim action against the extremists; more events such as depicted in your link, because there has been so little to date.

And because there has been so little, because instead we've seen polls that indicate the student is not part of a tiny minority, we are left with few choices but to take what is really a larger than normal risk, or be more suspicious until the very community from which the radicals have sprung become more vocal and active in joining the opposition to extremist behavior. That's not paranoia or bigotry. That's self-preservation based on available data.

Marshall Art said...


Pardon me for saying so, but your comment was really stupid. Assuming that the events of the OT actually happened (which I do), the Jew from those times has something the muslims of even Mohamed's time didn't have...a diploma. No wait, that's the scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz.

The Jew of the OT had prophets leading them who had direct contact with God. And unlike the muslims, the OT prophets words were supported by miraculous events foretold by the prophet that everyone could witness. In other words, absolute and incontrovertible proof that God was telling them to act. Muslims only had Mohamed's word for it that he received revelations.

Nice try, though.

Mark said...

Often logic is necessarily discriminatory, such as being aware and wary of young middle eastern appearing males. Not because of their skin color. Not because of their manner of dress. But because of their religion, which commands them to kill infidels(anyone not of their religion). If one chooses to illogically ignore the threat, one can easily become a victim of their ideology.

I choose to be logical.

I do not treat young middle eastern appearing males disrespectfully, nor do I give any indication that I suspect they may be sympathetic to terrorism, but I'm nuts if I refuse to be aware of the possibilities.

Jim said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jim said...

"I think Mark has been clear that he does not believe ALL muslims act so hatefully"

But he has made it clear that ALL Muslims are suspect.

"but that it appears to be a majority."

A majority of 1.6 BILLION people act hatefully?

"in other words, absolute and incontrovertible proof that God was telling them to act."

So if God told them to kill infidels, that's all about love and peace?

Marshall Art said...


"So if God told them to kill infidels, that's all about love and peace?"

It's too bad if God's Will doesn't align with your notion of what love and peace should look like. But if I'm not mistaken, did you not recently state that you have some Christian background? If this is true, then you should be aware that God is sovereign and in the OT He chose to act in a manner that some might view as "extreme" and extremely violent. What of it? This is not the time or venue that allows for a full semester of Biblical teaching of even the basics regarding God's nature and His motivations for destroying or raising up. Suffice to say that the point had to do with the difference between muslim terrorists of today (or any period, really), and the Jewish warrior of the OT.

I will add for your edification that it is a liberal projection that God and Bible is "all about love and peace". It isn't. It's about God, His Will and how we relate to Him. How love and peace factor in does so regardless of His commands to wipe out entire towns in the OT.

Jim said...

The "love and peace" was Lone Ranger's bit.

I'm getting it now. The Koran says God orders killing infidels, that is evil in every sense. The OT says God orders killing infidels, we're cool.

Mark said...

You're being willfully stupid, Jim. Or you're a liar. If you are really a Christian/worship leader, you would know there is a vast difference between what God says and what Mohammed (a false prophet) says.

When God commands, it comes from...well...God. When Mohammed commanded, it came from a mortal, not too bright human being with absolutely no connection with God at all. Just his whims which changed constantly from day to day.

You want to consider Mohammed on an equal to God? Fine. But don't be surprised to wake up in outer darkness upon your death.

Marshall Art said...

When OT prophets spoke for God, there were always something to back it up as true, such as publicly witnessed miracles or prophesies that came true. These things did not happen with Mohamed. One had to take his word for it that he received a revelation. Because of the plainly spoken prophesies that came true and/or the miracles that were plain for everyone to see, the OT Jew could have every confidence that God was indeed speaking through the prophet in question. So unless, Jim, you're going to try to make the case that the OT tales of prophesies and miracles are just, how did Dan Trabue put it? "epic tales" (not really true), the muslim of today OR the mid-to late 600'sAD have/had no real and legitimate justification for saying their actions were ordered by God.

Jim said...

God is God and God speaks to His people in His ways.

Allah akbar!

Mark said...

Jim, I can't believe that a Christian worship leader would say such a blasphemous thing.

Do you also believe there are many paths to God?

"See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand." Deuteronomy 32:39

Mohammed was never God. He never will be God. He never heard God's voice. Allah is not God. There is no Allah. There is only God. Anyone who claims he knows God but doesn't follow God is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Jim said...

"Mohammed was never God"? Really?

Nobody ever claimed that Mohammed was God.

"He never heard God's voice." You know that for a fact?

Jim said...

What exactly was blasphemous? "God is great"?

Mark said...

What exactly was blasphemous? "God is great"?

God IS great.

But that isn't what you said. You said "Allah Akbar". I don't care that Muslims say God is Allah, or that Allah is god. They worship a very different god than the God of the Bible. And you know it. Or, you should.

The Muslim god, Allah, is not God. Therefore, the statement is blasphemous.

Jim said...

Allah is the standard Arabic word for God. The term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God in the context of Islam. It is also used by Arabic speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Mizrahi Jews, Bahá'ís, Eastern Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians, in reference to God. - Wikipedia

Marshall Art said...


Wiki's always a solid source for info. :[ I typically use it only when it refutes a lib's position because it is known as a left-leaning source.

Anyway, allah is not God in any way, shape or form. This has some background. It is similar to what I've read and heard in the past, so I went ahead and linked to it for your edification.

Regarding Mohamed receiving revelations from allah, I believe he heard through an archangel, but I could be wrong. The main point, though, is that no one else heard anything. As I said, one had to take his word for it (or die usually). There was no miracle or fulfilled prophesy for anyone to witness or consider as there was for all the OT prophets.

Jim said...

"it is known as a left-leaning source. "

Only when it doesn't support your "facts".

In this case Wikipedia's sources are:

Encyclopedia Britannica

Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle
East and North Africa

Columbia Encyclopedia

Liberal rags all.