Saturday, August 28, 2010

On The "Ground Zero Mosque"

"Such evil deeds could religion prompt." ~ Lucretius

I've stayed out of the discussion about the Mosque at ground zero controversy for several reasons. Mostly, because there really isn't anything to say about it that hasn't been said already. And, it doesn't require a lengthy statement to state my opinion which is:

They have the right to build it there, but they shouldn't.

However, allow me to respond to the points made by the left in their attempts to justify their support of the Mosque by repeating, ad nauseum, some, but not all of the following points:

1. The Mosque won't be built right on Ground Zero, but is instead a couple of blocks away.

2. It really isn't a Mosque, per se, but an Islamic "cultural center". The Mosque is only a small part of the entire center.

3. They have a legal, first amendment right to build their Mosque wherever they want.

4. Their stated intent is to dissolve the antipathy between Islam and all other religions and to unite the community.

5. Not all Muslims are terrorists.

6. Americans are racist bigots for not wanting to allow the Muslims to build their Mosque near Ground Zero.

7. We need to be tolerant of other religions and cultures. Intolerance is anti-American.

8. It doesn't matter who is funding the project.

9. Americans who oppose the building of the Mosque only oppose it because they hate Obama. (I've actually heard this)

10. Some of the families of the victims of 9/11 support the project.

This is my response to those points:

1. It doesn't matter if the Mosque isn't right at ground Zero. The intent is clear. It is a "victory" Mosque. Make no mistake. Muslims, by and large, consider the attacks on the WTC a victory for Islam. If one does the necessary research, one will find it is standard operating procedure for Muslims to build Mosques upon the rubble of property taken in battle. I'm sure the Muslims probably wanted to build it right at Ground Zero, but were disallowed because it is now considered an historical site, so they got as close as they were allowed.

2. An Islamic cultural center is even more dangerous to Americans than merely a Mosque. A cultural center, especially one that promotes itself as multi-culturist, will attempt to convert all who make use of the facility to Islam, and by extension, some of the more impressionable converts may become terrorists, or at least, terrorist sympathizers themselves.

Think of your local Evangelical Church establishing programs for the youth in the community for the purpose of evangelism. It's the same concept.

Except, Christian community programs don't usually teach kids how to blow things up.

An Islamic Cultural center may breed terrorism. Any true Christian should oppose this cultural center on the basis that Islam is a Satanic religion intent on wiping Christianity out, if for no other reason.

3. This is true. But, just because they have the right to build it wherever they want, it doesn't mean they have to build it wherever they want.

4. If they are truly trying to "unite" the community as they claim, they would build it almost anywhere else (with the exception, of course, next to the Pentagon or in a certain field in Pennsylvania).

5. This is true also, but most terrorists are Muslims, with very few exceptions. And, regardless whether certain Muslims are terrorists themselves, the majority of them support terrorism, or refuse to condemn terrorist acts.

6. Some Americans are indeed bigots and racists, but they aren't the only Americans who oppose the project. Muslims are bigoted against Jews, Americans, women, and homosexuals, along with every other group in the world that represents any group except Muslims. In fact, there are Muslims that are even prejudiced against other Muslims who are not of the same sect of Islam. Muslims, as a rule, are much more bigoted than the majority of Americans. Why doesn't the left have a problem with that?

7. Intolerance is a door that swings both ways. Why is there no outrage over the intolerance exhibited by supporters of the Mosque? Why do they have no tolerance for my opinions? I've said this often: I find Liberal intolerance of my intolerance intolerable.

8. This is true, also. I see no reason why Conservatives would use this as an objection to the Mosque. Does anyone ever ask who funds Baptist Church buildings? How about Catholics? Mormons? Scientologists? It doesn't matter who funds the project. The better question is why they are funding the project. What is their motive?

9. No, we oppose it because it is highly insulting and insensitive to the memory of the victims of the WTC attacks in 2001. We don't oppose the project because Obama supports it. Obama's support of the project is yet another in a long list of reasons why we hate Obama.

10. So what? Families of the victims have every right to be supportive of the group that destroyed their lives. They also have the right to be wrong, misguided, and deluded.

It's called Liberty.

Giving tacit approval of a bad idea doesn't make it a good idea.

Bottom line: Muslims have the right to build their Mosque anywhere they want. But, if they are truly a "religion of peace", as the Liberals claim, why would they want to build it near Ground Zero unless they want to intentionally insult and offend America?

Cross posted at American Descent


Mark said...

I might add that along with being offensive and insensitive, it's also disrespectful.

Jim O said...

I'll just deal with point one, since I just can't atand thinking about this atrocity for long, but I must give it some thought, being a New Yorker.

The building that the backers have bought IS part of Ground Zero. Part of the fusilage from the plane that hit the north tower fell to the roof of that building, busted a hole through it, and drilled through several floors. The only reason no one was killed in that building is because it wasn't open yet (the attack began before 9AM).

I repeat for emphasis, in response to those who think that because it is two blocks away from the World Trade Center, I have no business being offended: it is part of Ground Zero.

Anonymous said...

I was going to post what Jim said, the mosque is being built in the old Burlington Coat Factory store that was damage by airplane parts. Most people think that Ground Zero is only where the World Trade Towers stood. That would be incorrect.

If they do build the Mosque out of religious freedom, then they must show they truly believe that by allowing St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church to be rebuilt. It was destroyed when the towers fell on it. Many people don't realize how close to to the towers this church was.

The following link has a photo that I took of St. Nicholas from the towers, the last weekend in August, 2001.

Always On Watch said...

It doesn't matter who funds the project. The better question is why they are funding the project. What is their motive?

We may discern the motive if we know who is doing the funding.

Of course, here in the United States, we don't investigate the funding of religious structures.

The problem with Islam: it's more than "just another religion," at least, for some fundamentalist Moslems.

As we learn more about Imam Rauf, we are learning that he's not such a moderate after all. I'm sure that you've seen the title of his book, as the book was titled in Indonesia.

Jim said...

We do know that some of the funding for the cultural center comes from Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, who also happens to be the second largest stockholder of Fox News Corp (7%).

Derec said...

6. Muslims who are bigots get on my nerves as well and yes I aknowledge their existance. Of course you judge people you don't even know once again, both by assuming I (self-identified leftist) don't aknowledge muslim bigotry, and by assuming most muslims are bigots. Of course I've had a chance to read this post and actually hear what you think and you appear to be the bigot here. That's my judgement of how you think, as opposed to you judging millions of people you've never talked to.

7. Who would tolerate intolerence? I can't put up with this for very long. The difference is my intolerance of your intolerance is intolerance based on your prejudiced views, again as opposed to your intolerence founded in prejudice of people you've never met.

8. Well the people funding it have every right to and until a crime is commited we have no reason to suspect any wrongdoing.

9. I've heard this from people on my side and you're right that it's just an overused arguement by everyone against the right.

10. Ok this point is the one that gets on my nerves the most, because it still shows that people have the mindset that humans aren't individuals and that if you belong to this group you are assumed to be this way or that. Islam didn't attack the twin towers and the pentagon, a few radical extremeists did. Muslims are still individual human beings with thoughts of their own and most have never had anything to do with these crimes. Back to that nifty percentage I calculated, can you really say Islam is attacking us when over the past 9 years only around 0.0016% of them have done so?

Not only do they have a legal right to build it there, but the idea that it is insensitive is wrong as well, because that assumes that the people building this mosque and the people using it are somehow connected to these radical groups. I'd like to point out that Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal (second largest shareholder of News Corp) which owns Fox News is also funding the mosque. Fox News might be funded by terrorists!

Mark said...

Derec, how many Christians have attacked us? And you can't use Timothy McVeigh because he wasn't a Christian.

Look, I don't personally care if they build a mosque there. I have no dog in this fight.

I presented the points the supporters use and then I presented logical responses to them.

Bottom line, as I said, is this: They have the right to build it there, but why would they want to, if they aren't intentionally trying to rub salt into a still festering wound? Got any answers to that? There are thousands, if not millions of adequate places to build their mosque where no one would feel insulted. So, why there? Why that particular spot?

I think we all understand why they choose to build there, even if some commenters would not admit it. It doesn't take a brain scientist.

Mark said...

AOW, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure I already have discerned the motive.

Mark said...

Jim, George Soros funds Media matters and other criminal organizations. Does that mean he's a criminal?

As I said, Jim, and Derec. It doesn't matter who is funding them. George Soros and Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal are businessmen. They invest in whatever businesses they think will make them money. Their personal financial decisions don't make any kind of statement about them other than that they are shrewd businessmen. I would venture to bet both of them have little if any part in the corporate decisions made by the various businesses in which they have stock.

Jim said...

"Jim, George Soros funds Media matters and other criminal organizations. Does that mean he's a criminal?"

Only a dick would continue to believe the proven falsehood that Soros funds Media Matters. He's never given them a dime. But so what if he did?

To say that Media Matters is a criminal organization is an outrageous lie.

sean said...

The heading on your website says that you are a bitter conservative clinging to your religion. May I ask what religion is it that you are clinging to?

Jesus Christ who died on the cross for you says "As I have loved you, love one another".

Put down your guns and embrace your fellow man as Jesus has taught.

Trader Rick said...

Jim reverts to his old style of faulty logic and potty mouth, when his limited intellect can't sort out fact from fiction. It's OK, Jim, look, your soup's here. No, don't worry you don't need a spoon, you can just drink it from this sippy cup. Here, let me get rid of that drool cup and get this bib on you. There you go. It's not too hot is it? OK, there you go, Good boy.

Mark said...

Sean. Your response to a lengthy blog post is a comment on my heading?

The heading is a sarcastic rejoinder to Obama's famous statement made when he thought the tape recorders were off. Nothing more.

As loving one another...I'll show love for my Muslim brothers as soon as they show they have a little bit of compassion and locate their "Victory Mosque" elsewhere.

This is the bottom line, as I said:

Unless they are intentionally trying to create bad feelings between Muslims and Jews, Christians, and all other Americans, why do they choose not to build it elsewhere? Why that particular spot?

So far, none of the commenters who disagree with me have answered that question. I believe it's because they know the intentions are clear.

sean said...

Hi Mark,

Personally, I never understood saying one thing and doing another. I find that it's an awful waste of time and energy. Jesus never said "I will love you as soon as you..." It is unconditional love and forgiveness that he asked you to have.

If you think about it, what does it really matter where a person chooses to be? It is not my land, or your land, or even America's land. It is not owned by those who died there. God created the world. Who are you to claim righteousness over it?

I understand where you are coming from, please believe me. If our nation is to prosper and overcome our struggles, a major change from within is going to have to occur one man at a time. If each of us looks within we will find what is truly important and that there will be no winners in the petty quarrels we have been having.

Z said...

Mark, we're reminded in the Old Testament how God used people to fight for Him.....
We need to stay vigilant and inform those who aren't paying attention to things like this mosque, etc.
Keep turning over the tables in the temple, Mark!
thanks for fighting the fight. xxx

Jim said...

"Jim reverts to his old style of faulty logic"

And TR provides no fact, no argument, just drivel leaking out the corner of his mouth like a wet fart. How's that for "potty mouth."

Mark said...

Jim, you don't back up your statements so why should Rick have to? Is this an example of that famous double standard Libs are so well known for?

You still haven't explained why the mosque has to be built there, unless they are intentionally provoking us. Otherwise, I see no reason why it can't be built elsewhere. Please explain this to me.

Marshall Art said...


Regarding bigotry and prejudice I would encourage you to keep a distinction in mind regarding islam. There are many who were brought up in the faith that speak of what the religion is as regards those of us who are not muslim. There are some who have studied the faith and written books about what the religion is and what their intentions are. The point here is that we must first start with the religion itself and go from there. It is true that there are muslims who do not believe in murdering non-muslims, who do not think they should beat their wives and keep them totally covered and enslaved, who do not believe in cutting off body parts of sinners or a host of other unsavory things their prophet mandates for them to do.

But since these things are taught in their holy books, how is it bigotry to regard any given muslim with a wary eye? If someone proclaims himself to be a devout muslim, what does that mean? To me, it means I have to assume that all of the nasty things that islam teaches is what that devout person believes and abides, either personally engaging in such things or proudly supporting others who do.

The point here is not bigotry on our part, but recognizing the mandated bigotry on their part and what any words or actions on their part means to the rest of us. Unlike the nonsensical claims about blacks by white supremists, or the BS accusations toward Jews by muslims, our concerns are based on their own doctrines and beliefs that are taught by their leaders and holy books.

I would have far less concern for an individual muslim than for a group that seeks to further the islamic agenda, which is clearly destructive. The individual I can come to know, as I already have in my personal life, to the extent that it is possible to know anyone. At the same time, to pretend that we can assume they are "just like us", particularly considering the teachings of their religion, is willfully naive and ignorant.

Marshall Art said...

I would also add that this idea that they have a right to build where they want is a specious claim. Especially considering how many mosques are already in the area, is the state constitutionally mandated to allow construction of mosques everywhere and anywhere in any number? Keep in mind that the overwhelming opposition to this "cultural center" isn't toward building it at all, but building it in this particular spot. Claims of bigotry and "islamophobia" are lies meant to smear and to intimidate anyone from objecting to anything they feel like doing.

Jim said...

"Jim, you don't back up your statements so why should Rick have to?" Actually, I do all the time. In this particular case, you are asking me to prove a negative. You've made an outrageous claim for which you have no proof. I have asserted in the past here that your grandmother was a prostitute and you have YET to prove that that isn't true.

"You still haven't explained why the mosque has to be built there". I've made no such argument so no need to explain it. I've only maintained that there is no overwhelming argument as to why it shouldn't. The only case against the cultural center is based on bigotry, ignorance and smears.

By the way, are we you insisting that the "mosque" within the Pentagon be removed? Why not?

"But since these things are taught in their holy books..."

And not in ours?