Friday, May 18, 2007

The New Immigration Proposal

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." ~ Ernest Benn

Normally, I don't copy and paste news stories here, but I think this story speaks for itself:

"In a striking reach across party lines, the White House and key lawmakers agreed Thursday on a sweeping immigration plan to grant legal status to millions of people in the country unlawfully."

Sounds a lot like amnesty to me. Could it be?

"The compromise brought together an unlikely alliance of liberal Democrats such as Sen. Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts and conservative Republicans such as Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona on an issue that carries heavy potential risks and rewards for all involved."

OK. I already have a problem with this. Anytime Kennedy is involved, I know there will be trouble.

"The proposed agreement would allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a "Z visa" and - after paying fees and a $5,000 fine - ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of households would have to return to their home countries first."

Oh yeah, that'll work. Anyone else think illegals who are getting everything free right now will pony up five grand AND voluntarily go back home? Or come forward?

It goes on, but that last part has pretty much convinced me the whole plan is ridiculous, so I am not going to list the other provisions. It won't work. Even if some of the illegals do come forward with $5,000.00, it won't come close to solving the problem.

Why would anyone come forward with that kind of money to be legal when they already have everything they want for free? I know if I was enjoying a free ride with no expectation of responsibility in return, I wouldn't spend a cent to make things even more complicated for me.

Besides the fact that it won't work, the proposal deals somewhat with the number of illegals in the country but it does next to nothing to solve the most serious underlying problem with our open border policies.

This is a National security issue. As I said on a previous post, if friendly, hard working people can enter this country undetected, so can un-friendly murderous terrorists. There is no provision in the current proposal that will prevent terrorists from entering this country illegally for the purpose of committing terrorists acts against innocent Americans.

Build a wall. Deport the illegals. Keep them out. Enforce the border.

61 comments:

Francis Lynn said...

Build a wall, you say? That was passed last year - 800 miles of wall. Since then, there has been 2 miles of wall built. Duh. And this new legislation would cut the 800 miles in half. So don't expect to much in promises of secured borders in this legislation.

What needs to be done is to build some will - the will of Congress to enforce the immigration laws already on the books.

This new legislation is a joke, an insult to every American & every person waitng to immigrate here through the legal process.

The Senate is again selling out Americans. They are despicable. And every Republican, especially conservative Republicans, who sign on to this bill is a sell-out. They are a bunch of horses asses to put it midly.

The Congress is putting more effort into the wants of illegal aliens then into the wishes of the American people.

The government can't find 600,000 alien fugitives in this country, so how the hell are they going to manage processing 12-20 million illegals towards a "pathway to citizenship"? How are they going to validate who they really are? How are they going to do background checks?

Along with the hard-working family values illegals who do jobs Americans won't do, the gang thugs of MS-13 will now be legalized, the sexual predators will now be legalized, the child molesters will now be legalized. And terrorists that maybe here now will be legalized & have greater access to a more legitimate "identity".

And why reward illegals who broke American law by coming here illegally? And what about the phony SSN's they use, the phony DL's & other documents they use - will they be forgiven for these crimes as well? Apparantly so.

And let's not forget that 12-20 million illegals suddenly legaized translates into 40 million or more family members who can now come in.

And let's not forget that legalization allows them greater, legal access to our social services. The taxpayers will love that.

And what do we do about the illegals who don't come forward or who don't want legalization for whatever reason? And what do we do about the next batch of illegals who come into the country or the batch after that?

At least there will be additional employment - for the cottage industry of phoney document makers, so that every illegal can 'prove' they were here before Jan 2007 & who can 'prove' they are who they say they are.

This government makes me sick. Congress makes me sick. If we had Hillary's universal health care, maybe I at least could be treated for it.

Francis Lynn said...

One other thing -

This legislation would give "Z visas" to all illegals. This would make them legal to stay in the USA indefinitely. However, there is no requirement that they pursue citizenship. Once they get their Z visas they have hit paydirt - legalization & all the government benefits that accrue from it - Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, 50 plus government welfare programs, etc, etc. This is blatant anmesty, regardless of what the lying Senators say. And it's more - they get benefits too.

As for those who pursue citizenship, they have to pay a $5,000 fine - on the installment plan. Whose going to do the collecting, the tracking, the enforcing? More bloated bureacracy or no means to collect.

Also, the waiting list for relatives waiting to get in must first be eliminated before legalizing the illegals comes into effect. There are 4 million on the list. They will be fast-tracked entry into the country.

I'd go on, but I'm gonna go for a walk & punch in the face the first illegal or Senator I see.

Ms.Green said...

The idiots on both sides (rep & dem) are selling us out. I wish we could get rid of the whole bunch and start over.

Abouna said...

Ms.Green: You stated: "The idiots on both sides (rep & dem) are selling us out. I wish we could get rid of the whole bunch and start over."

If the majority of Americans had the backbone, we could! Thomas Jefferson wrote that we have the right to take up arms against our government if the consistanly defy the will of those who elected them. In other words, if WE THE PEOPLE cannot make our elected officials do the job for which they were elected and get them to honor their Oath of Office, either through the power of the ballot box or through the power of the Courts, then we have the right and obligation to do it with the power of the gun. I know it sounds drastic, but if we do nothing, we will lose our country.

Francis Lynn and Mark: One of the biggest problems that will come out of this Bill, is the END of our Two Party System. We will end up with ONE POLITICAL Party. The whole culture of the U.S. will be drastically changed with the majority of the population being Hispanic. The United States will end up like the majority of the South American (Latin American) countries that all eventually fall into anarchy, one civil war after another and Tyrannical rulers.

If we do nothing now, if we continue to remail silent while our elected officials sell out our Freedoms, our National Sovereignty, that is the future that awaits us.

Marshall Art said...

Francis,

Please do not call politicians "horses' asses". My little girl thinks its disparaging to the horses.

I've been listening to discussions about this on Medved's show. Anyone who listens to him knows he's for this. He feels the current system is too broken and doing nothing gives the Dems the chance to look good to the Hispanics if they can get it done later, or that the Reps will look worse to Hispanics for kicking them out or some such. I don't care. I think those who went through the process are now totally insulted and made to be chumps. Everyone needs to clog the phone lines to their reps and bitch like there's no tomorrow.

Trader Rick said...

ms. green has it right on! Idiots in Congress!!

Dan Trabue said...

"If the majority of Americans had the backbone, we could!"

I suspect that it's not a matter of Americans not having backbone, but rather that most of us are not as worried about this as most of you are. That most of us recognized this is a nuanced issue and not as black/white as the outraged Right believes it to be.

I suspect that y'all are in the minority and that sometimes sucks in this Republic.

Mark said...

Oh Come on, Dan, did you even read Francis' comment? He has it right. The amount of our tax money going out to illegal aliens who abuse the system is astronomical.

Maybe you don't have first hand experience living among illegals like some of us who live near the major hubs of illegal infestation, like Francis' New York or my Washington DC. I suspect it isn't as serious a problem in Kentucky.

I never said the illegals were'nt intelligent. They know to stay out of Kentucky. What's your excuse?

OK. That last paragraph was a cheap shot...I was just kidding about Kentucky, Dan. I know it's a fine place to live with fine people. No offense.

DD2 said...

It is disheartening that so many Senators and Congressmen just don’t care for the average citizen. They do care about maintaining their power and elected office and apparently feel the illegal aliens and their friends can accomplish that for them. They just don’t care about the wishes and the wants of the people that elected them in the first place.
I am sick over this whole damn thing!

Dan Trabue said...

"Oh Come on, Dan, did you even read Francis' comment?"

umm, yes. Francis said that if the majority of Americans had backbones we'd be outraged along with him and kick out our representatives. I responded by saying that we have plenty of backbone but apparently the majority of Americans don't consider this to be as big a problem as the outraged Right does.

Y'all are probably in the minority on this one and will have to live with the direction the rest of the country wants to go.

Which is not to say that there's not a problem, I think there is and I think polls suggest the citizenry is concerned. It's just that we don't think building walls and criminalizing millions of people is an effective way to deal with our immigration - and foreign policy - problems.

"The amount of our tax money going out to illegal aliens who abuse the system is astronomical."

According to the information I've read (in multiple studies including one referenced here, illegals probably contribute a great deal more than they take out of our system.

And yes, we have plenty of illegals here in Kentucky, working in our chicken factories, on our farms, in our horse industry, etc.

There is a problem and we need to deal with it. I just think that the evidence shows that the majority of your fellow citizens don't share your outrage about the problem because we don't think it's as serious an issue as you do.

And again, sometimes it sucks being a minority in a representative gov't, but that's how it works, right?

Y'all go on and make your case that this is a real problem. Calm down and stop the hyperventilating over it and you may even begin to win more people to your side.

Mark said...

Dan, you really didn't mean, "It's just that we don't think building walls and criminalizing millions of people is an effective way to deal with our immigration... problems", did you?

We are not criminalizing millions of people. They have criminalized themselves by virtue of the act of breaking our laws. It's really a simple equation, Dan, try to follow:

If you break the law, you are committing a crime. Committing a crime makes you a criminal. Millions of aliens have broken our law. That makes them criminals.

Mike's America said...

I'm with Francis times ten!

If you go back and look at the history of American immigration it ALWAYS had a component requiring assimilation.

Yet now, with multiculturalism the predominent factor we permit a balkanized society of underclass persons to reside in our midst with no expectation that they will join us more fully in the Great American Dream.

I went into this subject in great detail last year:

http://mikesamerica.blogspot.com/2006/04/myth-of-immigrant-assimilation-reality.html

My research led me to discover the fact that Mexico is purposely dumping the least skilled and poorest of it's workers into the United States. You don't see the "white" mexicans immigrating illegally do you?

Mexico has engaged in a policy of destroying the rural farm communities that were these people's homes and encouraging them to enter the U.S. Forced sterlizations of the Indian populations have also been reported.

It should scare the pants off everybody with half a brain that we are creating an illiterate underclass of persons who are totally segregated by language and culture within our communities.

Though I'm not at all surprised your resident socialist thinks otherwise. It's an old Stalinist trick they learned. Create chaos in a stable system and take over.

Dan Trabue said...

"you really didn't mean, "It's just that we don't think building walls and criminalizing millions of people is an effective way to deal with our immigration... problems", did you?"

Yep.

What I'm saying is that I think the majority of your fellow citizens think we have an immigration problem and foreign policy problems, but we don't think the illegal immigrants coming in our country are the worst problem facing our nation.

We don't think a wall is a good way to deal with the problem.

And we don't think it wise to try to invest the trillions of dollars it would cost to implement the "round them up and send them home," (or imprison them) solution you're advocating.

Feel free to be concerned about this problem all you want. Make your case, by all means. But thus far, the majority of folk aren't buying the histrionics being voiced by those on the Right.

In fact, the vinegar and spit from the Right makes at least some of us more sympathetic to the illegal aliens entering our country, as you [the collective "you" not you alone, Mark] seem to be a bit toward the rabid side - especially when you ignore some facts and make up strawmen ("they're taking our jobs," "they're living off our money," etc) to better attack illegal immigrants.

Abouna said...

Dan, if you used your head, you would realize that it would cost far less to send back the illegals then it is costing to keep them here. If the government would just stop giving them free med/dental, free education, food stamps, low income housing, and if the employers would stop hiring the illegals, they would eventually go back to their home country on their own, once they realize that we are no longer going to give them hand outs.

I'm sorry, but the United States does not NEED millions of illegals every year to bolster our economy. As long as employers know that they can get away with hiring cheap illegal labor, the more Americans will lose jobs as their employers fire them so that they too can hire cheap labor.

The WordSmith from Nantucket said...



This new legislation is a joke, an insult to every American & every person waitng to immigrate here through the legal process.


The thing is...I haven't read the bill yet. Just a lot of heated rhetoric and reactions to what no one could possibly have examined the details of, yet.

The status quo isn't acceptable.

The new bill is being attacked from left and right for diametrically opposite reasons. And it's mostly through emotion and frustration, because nothing, I suspect, will ever be good enough.

It's a mess.

Francis Lynn said...

This legislation is getting crazier. Now it's reported that the provision for illegals to pay back taxes owed has been removed. Not even Americans get that consideration.

And illegals who apply for Z-visas have to go thru background check - but if background check not completed in 24hrs, they get the visas regardless. 24hrs to check someone from another country with little or no documents? This is insane.

The Senate just wants an end to the illegal issue by making them all legal & putting up the smoke-screen of checks & border security & 'triggers'. They are reprehensible. They are traitors. They are horses patooties(in deference to Marshal Art's dau).

Marshall Art said...

What would be good enough, or at least a good start, is to simply trash what they have and start over with border enforcement to be job one. Use all, or most of, our resources earmarked for this issue on stemming the flow. The "rabid" right is concerned about preventing another 9/11, while Dan and his ilk have reverted to 9/10 mindsets. He sides with the illegals due to our attitude? What a load. Our attitude is as stated above with a nod toward obeying the laws of our country for good measure. As far as obeying the laws and enforcing them, an immediate area is to take the cuffs off the cops who are unable to question the origin of the non-English speaking drunk driver who has no insurance. I say, incarcerate him and sell his vehicle for the cost of shipping him back whence he came. Then, when there's a bus load of 'em, off they go.

There's already laws that can be enforced regarding the felony of a second incursion by an already deported illegal, the felony of false documentation like SS cards. (By the way, overcrowding prisons and jails doesn't bother me in the least. Make room by removing barbells and lounge furniture, including TVs.) Seal the border and enforce the law. That's number one.

From there, fix the immigration system to tighten protocols and policies for allowing legal entry. (I don't know how they came up with whatever number of entries is the limit, but perhaps they could expand that.) But it's the procedures that need fixing in order to prevent undesirables from entering.

Encourage the Mexican government, as they are the closest neighbor and the one sending the most across, to adopt the economic and social policies that have made this country great so that their people have the same opportunities, or at least more than they have.

All the while, you have to send back those who came over illegally as we come upon them. Even the fines that this bill has mentioned is less than what the average immigrant pays in legal fees to get here and gain citizenship. So they're still getting off cheap and it's an affront to those who went through the process. In addition, all federal, state and municipal documents must come in English only. Period. End of story.

And for those who think the firmness on the issue of conservatives means bigotry, be it known that we are talking about ILLEGAL ALIENS and not immigrants in general. Try to remember that.

Dan Trabue said...

abouna said:

"If the government would just stop giving them free med/dental, free education, food stamps, low income housing..."

Again, from what I read, I believe the facts are that illegals contribute more than they deduct (see my link above or look it up yourself).

Again, we agree we have an immigration problem. We just disagree on the severity of the problem and solutions for the problem.

mudkitty said...

Mark, you might as well say..."More Taxes..." Because do you realize how unrealistic your "final" solution is in terms of fiduciary costs to the Nation? We can't control Baghdad, how do you expect to deport 12 million.

Another Berlin Wall is not and will never be feasible. America is a continent, not a Nation. The United States IS (and I'm assuming you guys know what "is" means) a nation of immigrants.

And Native Americans, or those of Native American heritage (you wanna talk about heritage?) are brown skinned people (including both Americas - including Canada.)

You guys do know that there are two American Continents, don't you?

Education, education, education.

Trader Rick said...

For once I agree with mudkitty--she is in desperate need of some rudimentary education.

The terms here applied to this legislation, "ridiculous" and "crazy" are right on the mark. There are no fuzzy headed "nuances" to this subject.

Our congress is now officially a sad joke.

Deport them all, seal the borders.

Dan Trabue said...

"Dan and his ilk have reverted to 9/10 mindsets. He sides with the illegals due to our attitude?"

No, I'm hesitant to join in the shrill Right because I think they're wrong. I'm opposed to the solutions being offered here because I'm opposed to monstrously large gov't (I thought that was the role of consertives?).

The fearmongering attitude (or at least that's how it comes across to me) and ignoring of facts just reinforces it. Shrillness rarely wins over converts.

Still, as I've said repeatedly, we do have issues that need to be dealt with. We do have an obligation to have responsible immigration and foreign policies.

Abandon that shrillness and advocate something that makes sense and more of the US citizenry might join with you.

The thing is, Marshall et al, is NOT that we are stuck with a "9-10 mindset" but rather that we think your solutions are very bad ideas to address our real problems.

And, as it stands now, y'all have lost this debate.

Dan Trabue said...

Marshall said:

"And for those who think the firmness on the issue of conservatives means bigotry, be it known that we are talking about ILLEGAL ALIENS and not immigrants in general. Try to remember that."

And I don't think you are bigots. Honestly.

BUT, you should remember that you do come perilously close to sounding bigoted with the stridency of your language, which helps explain why you're losing this argument.

Or ignore that friendly tip and continue in your stridency. It makes no difference to me. I'm just letting you know how you sound.

mudkitty said...

For anyone who wants to contrast a pre 9/11 mindset with a post 9/11 mindset, I have this to say: If you think 9/11 "changed everything" then you might as well just pack it in now and admit that you think the terrorists have won. That is the ultimate defeatist mindset. Wusses.

I'm hardly about to capitulate to terrorists, much less let them "change everything."

mudkitty said...

Illegal aliens? Or human beings? You decide? WWJthink?

Mark said...

"If you think 9/11 "changed everything" then you might as well just pack it in now and admit that you think the terrorists have won."

I fail to follow your peculiar twisted logic, Mudkitty. Whether it changed everything or not, how would that be an admission that the terrorists have won?

Oh, and while I am answering you, You aren't an idiot. When you argue that usage of the terms America or Americans applies to North, Central, and South America as well as The United States, you do nothing but split hairs. The entire World refers to The United States as simply America. And you know who we are referring to, so just stop wasting text in your feeble attempt to be argumentative.

Jenn of the Jungle said...

National ID must be presented anytime you are pulled over or are required to show ID if you do not have it, you will then pay for yourself to be deported, forfeiting a percentage of your belongings to pay for the welfare/generosity of this country tolerating your criminal arse here as long as we did.

Seal the border north and south and no more immigration at all for at least 5 years. Start fining companies REAL fines for employing illegals, like 1 million a person. And demand reparations from Mexico for feeding,"educating" and housing their citizens for years.

Then after we've rid this country of the 20+ million illegals, we start the process of allowing immigration based soley on what you can do for this country. You must speak English fluently and have at least a high school equivelant degree.

All government documents must be in Englsih and the ho ho's I buy in the grocery store need to have all writing in English, not French or Mexican. Period.

Oooops, sorry I just woke up, nice dream though.

Marshall Art said...

If there's any "shrillness" from the right, it's due to having had nothing happen to correct this problem since Reagan tried the amnesty idea in the '80s. And since 9/11, reasonable people feel that people sneaking across the borders is not a good thing. And as far as being seen as bigots, it doesn't help that lefties paint us that way in order to further their own ends. So, Dan, perhaps you can take it upon yourself to correct those you hear who make that mistake. (It is unfortunate, however, that bigots are on our side on this issue.)

Dan Trabue said...

"sorry I just woke up, nice dream though."

Gee, you folk sure aren't the small gov't type of conservatives, that's for sure...

Marshall Art said...

And how does enforcing the law equate to big government? The point is the law is barely being enforced at all, and that there are some laws that even inhibit enforcement. We only seek that Washington cut the crap and get it on. You, Dan, seem to want no immigration protocols whatsoever? Just totally open borders? Is that where you're coming from?

Dan Trabue said...

Marshall said:

You, Dan, seem to want no immigration protocols whatsoever? Just totally open borders?

Read my posts, see what I've stated. We have issues to be dealt with in our foreign and immigration policies, I've stated that quite clearly a few times here. I just don't want a massive gov't "solution" to that problem, rather, I'd suggest we have a smart gov't approach to the problem.

Look at the causes of illegal immigration - what can we do on our part to help reduce the root causes? Stop foreign policies that are further impoverishing and de-landing our neighbors to the South would be one wise starting point.

Creating a trillion dollar program that will exacerbate the problem is no solution at all. Creating our own Berlin Wall is not a viable solution.

I'm an advocate of smart gov't, not massive gov't.

mom2 said...

We must tell all official government agencies to contact Dan. He has the answers. Utopia is just around the corner if we do as Dan says. (I guess you all can detect a little sarcasm here.)

Ms.Green said...

Stop foreign policies that are further impoverishing and de-landing our neighbors to the South would be one wise starting point.

Why is it that liberals always think the US is responsible for every problem? Terrorists are our fault, illegals are our fault, hurricanes are our fault, heck, hemorrhoids are probably our fault too.

Marshall Art said...

Yeah, I forgot about that one. Mexico's problems are our fault. DAMN! When wil I learn that it's all our fault!!!??!?

Dan Trabue said...

"Why is it that liberals always think the US is responsible for every problem?"

Why is it "conservatives" think that liberals think that the US is responsible for every problem?

Mom2 said:
"Utopia is just around the corner if we do as Dan says."

All I did was say I don't want the proposed BIG gov't solutions (that I don't think will work) being proposed here. I made no utopian claims. I said a few times, "By all means, if you have reasonable suggestions on how to help ease the illegal immigrant problem, make them."

I further said that you have failed to win over the public at large with your calls for a massive criminalization and wall building response.

Really, if you'd like to have conversations, it really makes more sense to talk about what others have actually said instead of continually making strawman arguments to beat down (Dan wants a utopia. Dan is blaming the US.)

We're adults, neighbors and fellow citizens here, friends. Let's act like it.

Dan Trabue said...

While I don't consider World Net Daily to be a real news source in any regards at all - not in the least - I recognize that many people here appreciate its editorial/stories.

And so, I might suggest you read this story, which reports on an OxFam study showing the negative effects of NAFTA and similar trade agreements (with NAFTA being Clinton's baby) or go to other more legitimate sources and read the same stuff. Our foreign policies - especially in the last couple of decades - have had the result of job losses and loss of farms in Latin America and we've seen a corresponding increase in illegal immigration in their wake.

I'm just suggesting we would be wise to look to what causes illegal immigration if we hope to stem the flow.

To continue beating symptoms with a hammer and never considering root causes, we display poor reasoning processes.

mudkitty said...

World Nut Daily is extreme right wing propaganda, not news. Not even close.

mudkitty said...

It's very simple Mark, we shouldn't have to change our "American" way of life because terrorism exists in the world.

If "everything" changed after 9/11, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, hence the terrorists have already won. If you live in fear, they've won.

Terrorism is a tactic that has always existed. Terror is not a state of war, it's a state of fear and weakness.

"Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither."

Mark said...

"Everything" hasn't changed. Our cavalier attitude that we are untouchable has changed, as well it should.

I wouldn't say we live in fear. I would say it's more a state of constant vigilance. Some may call it paranoia. I call it common sense. Don't trust anyone unless you have a reason to.

mudkitty said...

A mere casual stroll through history shows that walls don't work.

Remember Jerico!

Marshall Art said...

"It's very simple Mark, we shouldn't have to change our "American" way of life because terrorism exists in the world."

This is silly. I don't mean the sentiment, but it's practical appllication. I have no doubt that you, Mudkiity, have altered aspects of your personal life in order to avoid high crime areas or areas where nastiness has occurred. Have you given in to the terrorism of street gangs or become more viglilant in where you go and when? Do you lock your doors? Do you walk unaccompanied in the middle of the night in areas with which you aren't familiar?

"A mere casual stroll through history shows that walls don't work."

Do you lock your doors? Have a fence around your property? Hey! Do you have doors at all on your home? Have you ever noticed walls around prisons, military installations, nuclear plants, Fort Knox? Walls work just fine as far as they are designed to. None are perfect by themselves. All frustrate the efforts of those who wish to enter. For the unwanted, uninvited or for those who neeed to be monitored in any way upon arrival, walls aid those efforts.

Ms.Green said...

"World Nut Daily is extreme right wing propaganda, not news. Not even close. "

This is a totally unsubstantiated remark, like a kid standing on the playground screeching "your mother wears army boots".

WND is a reputable and noteworthy source of news. You may not like the editorials or the proclivities of its readers, but you have little if anything to support such a blanket statement.

So I suppose you think CNN is a trustworthy member of the media? Bet you liked Dan Rather too, huh?

mudkitty said...

Actually, Mrs. Green, if you really believe that, then you are naive.

Dan Trabue said...

"WND is a reputable and noteworthy source of news."

sigh. Fox News is a right-leaning but relatively reputable source of news. "Reputable" in the sense that they generally get their facts right and refrain from too much editorializing in their stories.

Similarly for CNN, which is at times slightly right- or slightly left-leaning but generally reputable source of news.

Places like WND on the right and Sojo-net on the left are sources of information, but not above editorializing in their stories. Additionally, WND has, in at least two or three stories that I've read (and I don't go there regularly because of this) have gotten their facts blatantly and obviously wrong and reported nonetheless in pursuit of an agenda.

Which is fine except when someone tries to portray WND as a reliable source of general news. They are not reliable, they have gotten facts completely wrong (Like the story where they reported that 10% of public school children - 5 million students - have been sexually assaulted by their teachers! It was a story designed to denigrate and fearmonger public schools in support of homeschooling.

And it is fine if they want to be an advocate of homeschooling, but they shouldn't pretend to be a legitimate news organization while they're doing these sorts of hatchet jobs. WND is a Right Wing advocacy group that is not above reporting out and out lies and twist the truth in support of their agenda.

NOT a legitimate news organization.

They are a source for news as long as you recognize that the "news" may or may not be reality-based.

Henry said...

"They are a source for news as long as you recognize that the "news" may or may not be reality-based.'

Sounds just like The New York Times.

Ms.Green said...

Mud and Dan - neither of you substantiated your remarks about WND. Just more name calling.

Dan, I read the article. WND reported, and I quote, "An estimated 5 million students in United States schools have been assaulted sexually by teachers, according to a congressional report."

Quoting a report is legitimate news. If the report is wrong, that is not WND's fault.

News agencies all across America reported that OJ said he didn't do it. That does not make them unreputable.

So nyana nana nya nya.

Dan Trabue said...

"Quoting a report is legitimate news. If the report is wrong, that is not WND's fault."

I could find no verification anywhere that any such report exists. What's the name of the supposed congressional report? What office or committee was its source?

If a legitimate news source came up with such a wild and obviously wrong number in a supposed "report," they would do something within the story to verify that number or the source.

But hey, if you like WND, more power to you. I've seen enough examples of bad reporting there to know for myself that they're in no way reporting "real" news at least some of the time but instead will say anything to back their position.

So, if you trust them, then I'm sure you'll agree there's a point to be considered in their report about our policies causing increases in illegal immigration. Me, too.

That being the case, then, let's begin with changing our policies that are contributing to the root causes of illegal immigration before we do anything stupid like building walls or starting some massive gov't program. You with me?

Henry said...

"I could find no verification anywhere that any such report exists."

Dan, your reading comprehension must not be very good.

There was a direct link to the report in the WND article that you linked to.

Dan Trabue said...

Nice try Henry.

""Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature," was authored by Charol Shakeshaft, professor of educational administration at Hofstra University"

This lady appears to have an agenda. She found ridiculous data to support that agenda. There are NOT 10% of our school children being sexually assaulted by their teachers. It's just not happening.

The report was something she submitted to Congress, but nothing that Congress found themselves.

It says on the top of the second page, "the views expressed herein are those of the author..." Not even THIS administration would make such ridiculous claims.

These were NOT the findings of the US gov't because the "news" is patently false. No legitimate news story ran this story, I'm sure, because of its ridiculously wrong nature.

mudkitty said...

Let's face it, Faux News, is exactly that.

Ms.Green said...

"That being the case, then, let's begin with changing our policies that are contributing to the root causes of illegal immigration before we do anything stupid like building walls or starting some massive gov't program. You with me?

No, I'm not. It's not the US's fault that people break the law and come into this country illegally. It is their choice. It is their fault.

It IS the US's fault (Congress & the President) for allowing it to go on this long and do nothing about it - and now they want to grant amnesty to criminals. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Ms.Green said...

"If a legitimate news source came up with such a wild and obviously wrong number in a supposed "report," they would do something within the story to verify that number or the source.

Name some "legitimate" news sources, in your humble opinion.
Reuters? AP? The major networks? CNN? Just curious as to whom you think are legitimate.

Dan Trabue said...

"Name some "legitimate" news sources, in your humble opinion.
Reuters? AP? The major networks? CNN? Just curious as to whom you think are legitimate."

Yes, those. And FoxNews, for another.

Those are all legitimate news sources, in that they stick more or less to the facts and don't blatantly editorialize in their news stories. Yes, they all have a slant but I'm okay with that - we're all going to have some slant to our views, being human.

Other sources - Sojo.net, Rush Limbaugh, etc - are more deliberately editorializing stating the news and their opinion on it. And I'm okay with that.

What I'm NOT okay with is stuff like this WND that masquerades as a legitimate news source when they appear ready to print any lie - no matter how blatant - to back their viewpoint.

Marshall Art said...

Got a particular lie in mind, Dan, or is that just your opinion? Sincere query here. I don't really read that site.

mudkitty said...

On World Nut Daily, even the ands, thes, and buts are lies.

Dan Trabue said...

Marshall asked:

"Got a particular lie in mind, Dan, or is that just your opinion?"

I referred to earlier in this post:

"the story where they reported that 10% of public school children - 5 million students - have been sexually assaulted by their teachers!"

I've been to WND a handful of times. Of those visits, probably 3/5 reported similar bald-faced ridiculous "facts."

I may disagree with FoxNews' or CNN's slant, but at least they don't report outrageously wrong information, as I've found to be the case with WND.

Now is it possible that I happened upon WND the ONLY 3 times where they reported blatantly wrong stuff in order to support their agenda? Sure, it's possible, but I suspect I'm not wrong.

Henry said...

"I could find no verification anywhere that any such report exists."

Yet, the report exists.

And, when shown that the report exists, you change tack and say that the report is derived from someone's "agenda". So, does the report exist or not?

"There are NOT 10% of our school children being sexually assaulted by their teachers. It's just not happening."

And you know this how?

Dan Trabue said...

"And you know this how?"

Common sense.

I have a daughter in public school. She is in a classroom with 30 other children. Three of those 30 children are NOT being assaulted.

On its face, it is a ridiculous claim. Do you really think that such a number is even close to matching reality?

Looking at it another way, according to the census bureau, there are 6.2 million teachers in the US - that's all teachers, I assume that means private and maybe even college. (One source I found said 2.95 million public school teachers, that sounds about right.)

Do you think that each teacher is assault two children? Or that every other teacher is sexually assaulting four children??

It's a ridiculous claim. It's just plain wrong.

But tell you what, find me ANY school - just ONE - in the US where it has been reported and validated that ten out of every one hundred students have been sexually assaulted by a teacher and I'll reconsider the suggestion that it's a wholly ridiculous statement.

But you won't be able to do so because it hasn't happened at even ONE school, much less 10% of all school children in the US.

Mark said...

Sorry friends, I have to go with Dan on this one. That 10% number seems a little high to me, too.

It isn't unusual for news organizations to exxagerate figures like that. Remember when the "legitimate" news media reported that 10% of humans are homosexual? Some other news organizations researched that and found the number was closer to 1%.

It's all dependent on what agenda they want to advance. World Net daily is as guilty as CBS and CNN when it comes to pushing an agenda.

By the way, you might have noticed, I don't get my news from Worldnet daily or even newsmax. I don't like right leaning sources any more than left leaning ones.

I prefer FOX news. I think they are closer to fair and balanced than anyone else.

Henry said...

I have no doubt the number is highly exaggerated as well.

What I am pointing out is that Dan thinks his "common sense" is superior to everyone else's, elevating it to the status of fact.

I'm still waiting for his explanation of how the report exists when he said it doesn't.

mudkitty said...

Faux News is anything but. Sorry Mark, if you get your info from Fox, that explains a lot. They simply a propaganda arm of the rightwing, Republican Party.

Just look up Roger Ailes bio.

Marshall Art said...

Mark's talkin' "news", Muddy, not opinion. Their reporting of the news is objective. Your welcome to present an example to the contrary. I won't hold my breath.