tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post5640450819975881930..comments2024-03-25T04:46:46.000-04:00Comments on Casting Pearls Before Swine: Hillary A Socialist?Markhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15633208787250567256noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-20430706455121240852007-10-26T09:34:00.000-04:002007-10-26T09:34:00.000-04:00It would certainly have to depend on the subject a...It would certainly have to depend on the subject and the availability of information. I know of no research on religious charities and the priority they place on evangelizing. <BR/><BR/>Are you trying to say that religious charities place more emphasis on their charitable works rather than their evangelizing? <BR/><BR/>I formed my opinion based on direct experience with the subject. If my experiences were isolated incidents and you have surveys and polls to show otherwise I will modify my opinions to take in this new information. If on the other hand all you have are your own experiences to counter mine then you will not have such an easy time changing my opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-62446696498579896122007-10-25T19:45:00.000-04:002007-10-25T19:45:00.000-04:00Ben, would you accept annecdotal evidence from me,...Ben, would you accept annecdotal evidence from me, or Mark, or anyone else that you happened to be arguing with?<BR/><BR/>Or would you demand sources, and then dismiss the point out of hand?tugboatcapnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751281215697965077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-36858598083128528542007-10-25T19:06:00.000-04:002007-10-25T19:06:00.000-04:00I've noticed that the welfare people know every so...I've noticed that the welfare people know every source of available help, because they have used them all. Then there are the needy ones that will only take help when it comes their way and that being a Christian who senses a need and offers help.mom2https://www.blogger.com/profile/04208262522800271423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-14588619737011821512007-10-25T10:24:00.000-04:002007-10-25T10:24:00.000-04:00Just last night there was a news story at the tele...Just last night there was a news story at the television station I work at. An area children's home was expanding. The executive director spoke and his words were something like "Well our first mission is to give them the gift of Christ and secondly we help them find a stable environment." This is not an uncommon sentiment in my area. I've worked with a woman who ran a christian food pantry. While I was building her website she described to me how she tries to make sure her help only goes to christian families. So in my direct experience I see it as blackmail when religions tie help or charity to religious proselytizing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-24409505741181158412007-10-24T13:06:00.000-04:002007-10-24T13:06:00.000-04:00Where'd you learn that Christians tie religious pr...Where'd you learn that Christians tie religious proselytizing to help, BenT? Is this just a generalization you've come to, or have you actually read a factual report on this? <BR/><BR/>And what's all that "Law and Order" stuff?<BR/><BR/>Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill, these are not exclusively Christian concepts...<BR/><BR/>But, it is common sense that those who are incarcerated because of their own "dim view" of Law and Order would look for someone else to blame for their situation, I guess.tugboatcapnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751281215697965077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1218091755641939232007-10-24T12:51:00.000-04:002007-10-24T12:51:00.000-04:00bent, That is a statistic that I have heard quoted...bent, That is a statistic that I have heard quoted (don't remember the exact source), but it was that there are more converts to the muslim religion than any other religion during imprisonment.mom2https://www.blogger.com/profile/04208262522800271423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-8831996167024649432007-10-24T02:04:00.000-04:002007-10-24T02:04:00.000-04:00Where'd you learn that most inmate conversions are...Where'd you learn that most inmate conversions are to Islam? Is this just a generalization you've come to, or have you actually read a factual report on this? It wouldn't surprise me greatly, but neither would finding most conversions are to christianity. <BR/><BR/>Conservative Christianity has taken the position of "Law and Order". So many conservatives take the position of lock-em-up and throw away the key. It wouldn't surprise me to learn prisoners to take a dim attitude to those beliefs. That's one of the drawbacks when a religion becomes so tightly identified with one political party.<BR/><BR/>When you tie religious proselytizing to help. You're not giving a gift, you're blackmailing those in need.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-6343136895584024682007-10-23T22:53:00.000-04:002007-10-23T22:53:00.000-04:00BenT, the fact is that MOST of the inmates who fin...BenT, the fact is that MOST of the inmates who find religion in Prison DO become Muslim.<BR/><BR/>The problem is that people like YOU oppose "Christian Indoctrination", while turning a blind eye to the Religion of Islam in situations like Prisons.<BR/><BR/>Christians do not want to force religion on anyone, but rather feel that by sharing our faith with people, we offer them a gift. If they choose not to recieve it, that is their business.<BR/><BR/>Athiests and Agnostics would deny everyone the opportunity to be offered that gift in the first place, just to avoid having their closed-minded views challenged.<BR/><BR/>Seems a bit petty and selfish to me...<BR/><BR/>I'm just sayin'.tugboatcapnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751281215697965077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-61967633589750316382007-10-23T22:10:00.000-04:002007-10-23T22:10:00.000-04:00The best question to ask about things like Prison ...The best question to ask about things like Prison Fellowship ministries is that if it was an islamic organization, would you still defend it? If volunteers from a mosque were going into prisons, teaching literacy to prisoners by teaching them to read the koran, would that be okay with you? If it were a jewish organization teaching literacy through the torah? How passive would the proselytizing have to be before you would be happy with a competing religion ministering in a prison? For atheists and agnostics those reservations apply to all religions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-61056359289536211862007-10-23T10:24:00.000-04:002007-10-23T10:24:00.000-04:00Dan, Prison Fellowship ministries is a volunteer p...Dan, Prison Fellowship ministries is a volunteer program supported by contributions.mom2https://www.blogger.com/profile/04208262522800271423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-19111492064639523602007-10-22T20:50:00.000-04:002007-10-22T20:50:00.000-04:00Because no one has said that, Dan.Prison Education...Because no one has said that, Dan.<BR/><BR/>Prison Education Programs are a band-aid.<BR/><BR/>Conservatives would rather cure the real problem.<BR/><BR/>We would rather not encourage generation after generation of fatherless, poverty-stricken and Government Dependant children, which has been the result of the Government give-away programs that we oppose, and a universally recognized source of the crime that causes people to wind up in prison in the first place.<BR/><BR/>By "helping" the poor with tax-payer money, we destroy the family and create dependancy and an entitlement mentality, while discouraging personal responsibility, which depresses self respect, and destroys repect for others and for the Law.<BR/><BR/>Would it save more taxpayer money to educate prisoners, or to create a situation in which they would not wind up in prison to begin with?<BR/><BR/>No one here has any problem with spending tax money wisely, Dan.<BR/><BR/>You are just ignoring the big picture.<BR/><BR/>I would like to create an America in which EVERYONE can be successful on their own, without having to depend on the Government.<BR/><BR/>We would rather create Americans... Self sufficient, self reliant, FREE Americans, than SLAVES, Dan.<BR/><BR/>And when you take money from one man, and give it to another, you make slaves out of BOTH men.<BR/><BR/>The less the Government meddles in the affairs of the citizens, the better off we all are.tugboatcapnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751281215697965077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-59658100244167267912007-10-22T09:57:00.000-04:002007-10-22T09:57:00.000-04:00Why must they receive job training when the rest o...<I>Why must they receive job training when the rest of us must pay, or convince an employer we're worth it for the employer to pay?</I><BR/><BR/>Why?? Are you all missing the point? <BR/><BR/>Because it's fiscally responsible, that's why! It's not something we do so much for the prisoners as it is something we do for ourselves.<BR/><BR/>I'd much rather pay $1 million to educate a group of prisoners than pay $2 million to imprison them when they return to prison. PLUS, when they return to prison, they are not out there being responsible tax-paying citizens, costing us even more! PLUS, the costs to society of their cumulative crimes.<BR/><BR/>Do you not understand that for each prisoner that gets rehabilitated and doesn't return to prison, that's another working citizen paying taxes (and therefore "paying back" what we "gave" him for his rehabilitation).<BR/><BR/>Marshall, do you really believe in cutting off your nose to spite your face?<BR/><BR/>If this is what you all believe, you make absolutely no sense to I think most of us. Yours is an emotion-based, "let 'em rot - I'll gladly pay for them to sit in prison just so they don't get coddled!" sort of big gov't ANTI-TRUE Conservatism point of view and leans more towards a sort of goofy Big brother world.<BR/><BR/>Lord have mercy, no wonder we butt heads so often.<BR/><BR/>Mark, you are usually at least a little reasonable and practical: Surely you don't go along with this whiny nonsense?Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-72331556416383925822007-10-22T06:27:00.000-04:002007-10-22T06:27:00.000-04:00I asked one simple question: IF programs such as t...I asked one simple question: IF programs such as these work and thereby SAVE tax dollars, would you then support such programs.<BR/><BR/>NO ONE can answer this simple question except mom2, who, if I understand her answer, would rather spend MORE tax dollars and NOT assist prisoners because Chuck Colson was sued by the ACLU???<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure what one has to do with the other, but there you go.<BR/><BR/>So, as long as we understand one another - you all seem to be saying that (for whatever reason) that you care less about fiscal responsibility, a better society and small gov't than you do punishing people or something.<BR/><BR/>Do you understand how your brand of "conservatism" doesn't really make much sense to regular people interested in a relatively logical and moral and responsible approach to gov't?Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-40039428544946162012007-10-22T02:18:00.000-04:002007-10-22T02:18:00.000-04:00Just since Dan brought it up, I'm against educatio...Just since Dan brought it up, I'm against educational programs for prisoners. That is, I oppose any programs for which the prisoners aren't paying for themselves. As citizens, those who are, they have already been offered free education. Why must they receive job training when the rest of us must pay, or convince an employer we're worth it for the employer to pay? So if you can figure out how to get the prisoners to pay for this second chance, go for it.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-24544207704987471952007-10-21T19:59:00.000-04:002007-10-21T19:59:00.000-04:00Those're some amusing generalizations BenT.. false...Those're some amusing generalizations BenT.. <I>false</I>, but funny nonetheless.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08874712703862427318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-61540499196978199152007-10-21T18:54:00.000-04:002007-10-21T18:54:00.000-04:00They have PROVEN in study after study that such pr...They have PROVEN in study after study that such programs reduce prisoner recidivism and increase ex-con productivity and therefore pay for themselves and then some, SAVING taxpayer dollars.<BR/><BR/>That being the case, is anyone really opposed to this sort of program? quote from Dan's post.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately yes, Dan. The liberal Americans for Separation of Church and State with the help of the ACLU sued Chuck Colson's Prison Fellowship ministry and forced them to spend millions defending themselves for a ministry that is helping to rehabilitate prisoners and help keep them from being repeat offenders and prisoners.mom2https://www.blogger.com/profile/04208262522800271423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-28128423030209422442007-10-21T17:00:00.000-04:002007-10-21T17:00:00.000-04:00So now, I have to debate the pro's and con's of pr...So now, I have to debate the pro's and con's of prison education programs, huh?<BR/><BR/>Let me ask you this...<BR/><BR/>Out of all of that Republican Government spending that you were complaining about, did any of that go to prison education programs?<BR/><BR/>How much of it went into funding studies of the effectiveness of prison education programs?<BR/><BR/>But never mind all that. This is another attempt by you to redirect an argument because you are losing your point.<BR/><BR/>Now, stay with me here, Dan...<BR/><BR/>Once you surrender your tax money, you no longer have any direct control over what it is spent on.<BR/><BR/>So the taxes that you would rather were spent on prison education programs gets spent on building the Military Industrial Complex, and to Corporate Welfare and Agribusiness and subsidizing Energy Companies.<BR/><BR/>Now, Dan, would you say that Jesus supports subsidies to Energy Companies, Agribusiness, Road Builders, and a bloated, massive, offensive Military?<BR/><BR/>He must...<BR/><BR/>He said "render unto Ceasar", and all that.<BR/><BR/>Your argument, not mine...tugboatcapnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751281215697965077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-87481497130674150822007-10-21T16:39:00.000-04:002007-10-21T16:39:00.000-04:00Dan give it up. Conservatives are idealogicaly op...Dan give it up. Conservatives are idealogicaly opposed to giving their money to programs that will not directly benefit themselves. That's why none are arguing against interstate maintenance and military spending. Those taxes directly benefit the taxee. But ask a conservative to pay taxes that might benefit someone else, and hear the screams. Charity is only the purview of the church! No welfare! It's their own responsibility! Conservatives think from the point of personal benefit. They don't understand the concept of social good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-30241883853590190032007-10-21T15:48:00.000-04:002007-10-21T15:48:00.000-04:00Eric is not opposes to such programs. But is oppos...Eric is not opposes to such programs. But is opposed to programs that offer government <I>taxpayer paid-for</I> health care for people who can afford to buy it themselves.<BR/><BR/>I am opposed to politicians who say things like, and I paraphrase, 'some people need to have things taken away from them....' or 'we'll take the oil company profits...'<BR/><BR/>That is theft.<BR/><BR/>Yes, Marshall, I agree that some taxation IS necessary. But this graduated income-- <I>graft</I> --tax is not the best solution. <BR/><BR/>Also, someone said somewhere, on this post or another, that it is the Church's job to care for the poor. This is not true. We are to relieve the oppressed and the poor but not to the exclusion of seeing to the body of Christ first. We should clothe the naked, feed the hungry, champion the fatherless and widow, we should visit the sick and imprisoned, all this is part of our ministry of leading men and women to Christ, but it is not our function as the Church. We are to worship God; praise Him in word, song; lift up His name among the nations. The poor will ALWAYS be with us. Some by choice and some by sheer circumstance beyond their control or ability TO control. <BR/><BR/>So who do we help? 2 Thessalonians says <I>"...if any would not work, neither should he eat."</I> There is, therefore a measure of responsibility meted out to the poor. We must show compassion, but we must not allow that compassion to be used of those who are ungrateful of that compassion.<BR/><BR/>As with taxing the citizenry for the purpose of providing programs for the poor, the widow, the fatherless, the sick, and the prisoner. Dan may not advocate stealing from Paul to support Peter's abandoned wife and children, but there are plenty of Democrats and Liberals who do. As a compassionate nation we DO support Paul's abandoned wife and children, but again, there has to be some measure of responsibility for both Paul AND his abandoned wife and kids. There is no such thing as a free lunch... Salvation yes, but not lunch ;-)<BR/><BR/>I hate to sound cynical here, but truth of the matter is, much of Liberalism expresses quite a bit of cynicism on its own... to say nothing of personal power for politicians of ALL stripes, but Liberals seem to think it their honor-bound duty to take from the rich and support the poor with little or no pressure toward personal responsibility...<BR/><BR/>Roll your eyes all you want Dan. I'm unfazed by it. I know I'm right in this. And nothing you or any number of godless politicians can convince me otherwise. And before you get your knickers in a twist, I am not calling you 'godless'.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08874712703862427318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-86598305019722017902007-10-21T08:27:00.000-04:002007-10-21T08:27:00.000-04:00To be clear, you're referring to taxation for the ...<I>To be clear, you're referring to taxation for the purpose of wealth redistribution, are you not?</I><BR/><BR/>Read what I've written. Have I EVER advocated wealth redistribution?<BR/><BR/>No. In fact, I am opposed to such. Taking my money and giving it to road builders to subsidize motorists, the oil industry, the auto industry. Taking my money and subsidizing agribusiness, the military industrial complex, polluters.<BR/><BR/>Opposed to it all.<BR/><BR/>What I AM in favor of, and what I have said, is that I'm in favor of spending our money wisely (ie, so that it SAVES taxpayer/citizen dollars).<BR/><BR/>So, that being the case, I'm in favor of programs that pay for prisoner education and rehabilitation, because it costs society LESS in the long run.<BR/><BR/>I'm in favor of programs to help decrease homelessness and educate our citizens, because it saves society money in the long run.<BR/><BR/>Not many are advocating just handing out cash willy nilly to poor people because they're poor and not much of that happens (especially as compared to how much we hand out willy nilly to subsidize motorists, agribusiness, etc, etc). But some wise gov't types support programs and systems and policies that reduce the loss of citizen dollars.<BR/><BR/>Again, I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't agree with me on this. It's just a logical, fiscally sound idea to support.<BR/><BR/>Let's forget "WELFARE" for a second and just look at one type of program. Prisoner education programs.<BR/><BR/>They have PROVEN in study after study that such programs reduce prisoner recidivism and increase ex-con productivity and therefore pay for themselves and then some, SAVING taxpayer dollars.<BR/><BR/>That being the case, is anyone really opposed to this sort of program?Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-74265407463911613022007-10-21T00:18:00.000-04:002007-10-21T00:18:00.000-04:00ELAshley,To be clear, you're referring to taxation...ELAshley,<BR/><BR/>To be clear, you're referring to taxation for the purpose of wealth redistribution, are you not? Some taxation is necessary, and not all is "unrighteousness". Would you not agree?Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-16945410364106502492007-10-20T21:28:00.000-04:002007-10-20T21:28:00.000-04:00[rolls eyes.][rolls eyes.]Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-88922951320392860242007-10-20T20:03:00.000-04:002007-10-20T20:03:00.000-04:00I think you all have misread what Jesus had to say...I think you all have misread what Jesus had to say about taxes. He most certainly said "Render unto Caesar..." but that is hardly a wholesale endorsement of taxation. The Roman provincial system was corrupt and I can't believe that Christ would have supported, or supports now, ANYTHING corrupt. Instead, Jesus accepted the reality of the current system-- <I>His time not yet come.</I> Besides which, Publicans (tax-collectors) were thoroughly despised by the Jews of the day. But Jesus looked beyond what Matthew did for a living and called him away from his position with the Romans, to be a disciple of Christ... a fisher of men rather than an agent of Graft. <BR/><BR/>God doesn't sanction any unrighteousness, and taxation is certainly that. Why? Because it misses the mark, so to speak. Taxation is evil because it is compulsory... not a donation based on love of ones neighbor, which would be a fulfillment of the Law.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, just to set the record straight, tithes are NOT taxes. No one will <I>force</I> you to put money in the plate.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08874712703862427318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-4740164873989996212007-10-20T14:12:00.000-04:002007-10-20T14:12:00.000-04:00"Just don't suggest the Bible calls taxation "thef..."Just don't suggest the Bible calls taxation "theft" - it doesn't."<BR/><BR/>Nor do we. We call you taking my money to give to someone else, without asking for my permission theft. We call you deciding how much, how often, and to whom our money should go, fascism. We call your call for a redistribution of wealth, socialism. We call sending money for the benefit of maintaining the best, most efficient and state-of-the-art military, plain and simple common sense. A no brainer. Not rocket-science. A four year old could understand it kinda thing.<BR/><BR/>BTW, I don't stutter. Nothing you've ever said has aroused a level of emotion that would enable a stutter if I did. I do, however, shake my head and chuckle at the goofiness of your comments. <BR/><BR/>But reread the above and you'll see the difference between taxing to support and maintain the government, and taxation for purposes not the responsibility of the feds. You tread in the area of the latter. It is then that taxation becomes theft, as it forces some to pay for what others believe is a worthy charitable destination for tax money, whether all agree or not. Charity is a subjective issue. You speak of the proper management of our money, and we disagree with your notion of it.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-85046049893748353392007-10-20T12:01:00.000-04:002007-10-20T12:01:00.000-04:00And while we are speaking frankly, You came here l...And while we are speaking frankly, You came here looking for a fight, Dan. (The Pacifist.)<BR/><BR/>Stop complaining that you got hit.<BR/><BR/>You are every bit as guilty of "demonization" and "name calling" as any of us, and you repeatedly misrepresent the views of anyone who opposes you.<BR/><BR/>Poor mouthing and whining about our "accusations" makes you look petty and immature.tugboatcapnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751281215697965077noreply@blogger.com