tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post115417352838956631..comments2024-03-25T04:46:46.000-04:00Comments on Casting Pearls Before Swine: Don't Mess With IsraelMarkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15633208787250567256noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1156533457539288342006-08-25T15:17:00.000-04:002006-08-25T15:17:00.000-04:00"Supporting Saddam did do exactly what it was desi..."Supporting Saddam did do exactly what it was designed to do-- it prevented the Ayatollahs from exporting the Islamic Revolution throughout the Middle East."<BR/><BR/>And in the process, many Kurds were killed, war crimes were committed - crimes for which Saddam is being tried today. WHILE we supported him!<BR/><BR/>I truly don't understand some of y'all, purporting to be moral and/or Christian people but advocating the worse sort of immorality. The ends do NOT justify the means.<BR/><BR/>And you better damn well believe consequences matter. The consequences of us supporting Saddam was that people were killed - hundreds of thousands of people, for which you suddenly want to get all holy and condemn Saddam! Your reasoning escapes me.<BR/><BR/>The deaths in Iran DON'T jibe with my morality. I'm of the sort of morality that would oppose both Saddam AND Iran, but do so in an intelligent way, not illegally giving him weaponry that we later regret.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1156050617706638812006-08-20T01:10:00.000-04:002006-08-20T01:10:00.000-04:00dan--Supporting Saddam did do exactly what it was ...dan--<BR/><BR/>Supporting Saddam did do exactly what it was designed to do-- it prevented the Ayatollahs from exporting the Islamic Revolution throughout the Middle East. <BR/><BR/>Consequences matter. Jimmy Carter stabbed the Shah in the back and let the wackos takeover for his own personal morality. Today, thousands upon homosexuals have been executed in Iran, and adultery is punished by stoning. <BR/><BR/>How is that consonant with your so-called Christian morality?<BR/><BR/>Leftists don't care about consequences-- they only care about being <I>liked</I>, even by evil people.jhbowdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12377271992125388319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1155740521067366582006-08-16T11:02:00.000-04:002006-08-16T11:02:00.000-04:00"even if in the short term that meant supporting d..."even if in the short term that meant supporting dictators, assassinating leaders, and rigging elections in other countries."<BR/><BR/>Yeah, that supporting Saddam turned out real well...<BR/><BR/>There's a reason why it is a Conservative ideal (classically speaking) to NOT go around the world intervening in other nations - especially breaking and bending laws to do so. We just aren't genius enough to know when a dictator supported or overthrown is going to come back and bite us.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1155686515926868222006-08-15T20:01:00.000-04:002006-08-15T20:01:00.000-04:00Well, we know Mark is around if for no other reaso...Well, we know Mark is around if for no other reason than our comments keep coming. Hope all is well.<BR/><BR/>"even if in the short term that meant supporting dictators, assassinating leaders, and rigging elections in other countries."<BR/><BR/>Phew! That does say a lot about the difference between us. Face things as an adult? I am. As a moral Christian adult.<BR/><BR/>I reject the juvenile claim that we "gotta be tougher, meaner, more cut-throat than them" as not only juvenile and immoral, but counter-productive to our own security.<BR/><BR/>You can place your trust in "win at all costs - terrorism and lawlessness is okay when WE do it," I'll place mine in law and order and basic morality.<BR/><BR/>Peace.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1155662022053712622006-08-15T13:13:00.000-04:002006-08-15T13:13:00.000-04:00dan--Consequences matter. Your moral purity isn't ...dan--<BR/><BR/>Consequences matter. Your moral purity isn't worth jack when you're dead. You need to jettison the tunnel vision and see the big picture.<BR/><BR/>You asked if the question was ""Will we stand oppose to terrorism or will we be conquered?" That precisely is the question we face.<BR/><BR/>Think about the Cold War-- as a basic condition for a free world, we had to make sure Communism was defeated, even if in the short term that meant supporting dictators, assassinating leaders, and rigging elections in other countries.<BR/><BR/>You need to look at these things as an adult, and not like some child watching Disney. When faced with some pain now versus a LOT of pain later, isn't it best to take the first option? Be rational, please.jhbowdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12377271992125388319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1155570068005485662006-08-14T11:41:00.000-04:002006-08-14T11:41:00.000-04:00I'm not sure I follow your question.Just, appropri...I'm not sure I follow your question.<BR/><BR/>Just, appropriate means are just and appropriate. Wrong means are wrong. Deadly violence that hits innocent people is wrong, no matter who's doing it. Stopping oppression is right, no matter who's doing it, UNLESS they use wrong means to stop the oppression.<BR/><BR/>Isn't this just basic ethics and morality? I know it's what my momma taught me. What my little old Sunday School teachers taught me. What nearly all the world's religions and great thinkers teach me.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1155403686037941792006-08-12T13:28:00.000-04:002006-08-12T13:28:00.000-04:00"The ends do not justify the means."Then what does..."The ends do not justify the means."<BR/><BR/>Then what does?jhbowdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12377271992125388319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1155360549048665322006-08-12T01:29:00.000-04:002006-08-12T01:29:00.000-04:00"it would not have had the stomach to firebomb Dre..."it would not have had the stomach to firebomb Dresden or nuke Nagasaki."<BR/><BR/>Or, put another way, we wouldn't be wiling to commit war crimes? Yeah, that's right. I'd hope not.<BR/><BR/>The ends do not justify the means.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1155346830501846842006-08-11T21:40:00.000-04:002006-08-11T21:40:00.000-04:00dan--"Will we stand oppose to terrorism or will we...dan--<BR/><BR/>"Will we stand oppose to terrorism or will we be conquered?"<BR/><BR/>Uh, yes, that precisely is the question.<BR/><BR/>Today's generation would have lost world war two, since it would not have had the stomach to firebomb Dresden or nuke Nagasaki.jhbowdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12377271992125388319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1155346315695993862006-08-11T21:31:00.000-04:002006-08-11T21:31:00.000-04:00Wow. Re:"They are still His people. America needs ...Wow. Re:<BR/><BR/>"They are still His people. America needs to support Israel in this endeavor regardless of whether they are fighting this war civilly."<BR/><BR/>If what you mean is "Israel, right or wrong," then count me out. And if you mean "America, right or wrong," count me out!<BR/><BR/>Re:<BR/><BR/>"Those who study end times prophecy will also tell you that in the end, Israel will survive, and those who attack Israel and those who refuse to support Israels enemies will be destroyed."<BR/><BR/>Those who "study" end-times "prophecy" are going against the live-in-the-present-and-give-no-thought-for-the-morrow instructions and example of the Lord Jesus himself.<BR/><BR/>Whatever else they are, "Christian" is somewhere toward the bottom of the Top 5. Or below.Erudite Redneckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04830721195868387265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154921227115257322006-08-06T23:27:00.000-04:002006-08-06T23:27:00.000-04:00Jason said:"I'd want the government to turn the en...Jason said:<BR/><BR/>"I'd want the government to turn the enemy's land into a parking lot, right or wrong, civilians or no civilians."<BR/><BR/>You may well feel that way and I may even feel that way, but I would remain opposed to the US committing war crimes and targeting civilians, and even bombing blindly where you know civilians will be, is war crime material.<BR/><BR/>The question is not, Will we stand oppose to terrorism or will we be conquered? The question is, Will we stand oppose to oppression and war crimes and live up to those ideals or will we embrace that which we hate to overcome it? (As if that could be done...)Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154890545001484802006-08-06T14:55:00.000-04:002006-08-06T14:55:00.000-04:00mark--It is naive to believe that good triumphs ov...mark--<BR/><BR/>It is naive to believe that good triumphs over evil in the last chapter. Humanity has been in dark ages before, and it is not impossible that Islam will rule the world in our future.<BR/><BR/>Being loved by God doesn't mean spit when fanatics who believe in mass martyrdom at the end-of-times like Ahmadinejad are detonating nukes within your borders.<BR/><BR/>As Winston Churchill put described Islam, "No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."jhbowdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12377271992125388319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154870679503580982006-08-06T09:24:00.000-04:002006-08-06T09:24:00.000-04:00Sorry Wordsmith. I've been working really long hou...Sorry Wordsmith. I've been working really long hours and I have little time to spend online anymore. And sometimes when I am going through my e-mails, I am rather bleary eyed and don't know whether I click on publish or moderate. <BR/><BR/>Let me return this thread to the original premise. We need to support Israel. Nations who attack Israel have, through history, not only failed but have become non-existant. What happened to the Philistines? The Babylonians? Gone. Why? Because they messed with Israel. <BR/><BR/>It is true that Israel doesn't appear to be God's people anymore, but that is the people who have removed themselves from God. There is no evidence that God has removed Himself from His people.<BR/><BR/>The fact is: History shows that Israel has strayed from God time and time again, and everytime they suffer for it, and everytime, they repent and return to God, and everytime He forgives them and takes them back. One cannot say that about any other nation on Earth. <BR/><BR/>Those who study end times prophecy will also tell you that in the end, Israel will survive, and those who attack Israel and those who refuse to support Israels enemies will be destroyed. <BR/><BR/>They are still His people. America needs to support Israel in this endeavor regardless of whether they are fighting this war civilly.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15633208787250567256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154867157148123622006-08-06T08:25:00.000-04:002006-08-06T08:25:00.000-04:00Oh great...now I look like a fool and a tool.Thank...Oh great...now I look like a fool and a tool.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for putting it up.<BR/><BR/>*sigh* comment moderation is the pits.The WordSmith from Nantuckethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15937868119894243815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154827989714353432006-08-05T21:33:00.000-04:002006-08-05T21:33:00.000-04:00Mark...what happened to my last comment? I left i...Mark...what happened to my last comment? I left it last night.The WordSmith from Nantuckethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15937868119894243815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154824039977741112006-08-05T20:27:00.000-04:002006-08-05T20:27:00.000-04:00Dan, liam et al--There is a reason it is called wa...Dan, liam et al--<BR/><BR/>There is a reason it is called war and not happy playtime. <BR/><BR/>Civilians die in wars. During the battle of Okinawa, to take an example, 19,000 Americans died, 110,000 Japanese soldiers died, and 150,000 civilians died. <BR/><BR/>Just as Haifa is the third largest city in Israel, Chicago, where I reside, is the third largest city in the United States. If a country was firing rockets into MY city I'd want the government to turn the enemy's land into a parking lot, right or wrong, civilians or no civilians.<BR/><BR/>If the Party of God, the Hezb'Allah, valued the lives of the Lebs, they wouldn't have tunneled under Israel's border, killed eight Israelis, and kidnapped two. If the Lebs didn't want violence they would have put troops on their southern border. But the Lebanese government is afraid of the gangsters in the Party of God.<BR/><BR/>Lastly, the talk about negotiation with the Party of God is absolute crap. The Party of God, with the help of Iran, killed 241 American PEACEKEEPERS in 1983. The Party of God is composed of religious fanatics like Nasrallah, who like Islamic Jihad and Hamas, will not stop until every Jew living in Israel is DEAD.<BR/><BR/>Context matters, people.jhbowdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12377271992125388319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154748842276892512006-08-04T23:34:00.000-04:002006-08-04T23:34:00.000-04:00Liam,Even though Israel has a strong reputation in...Liam,<BR/><BR/>Even though Israel has a strong reputation in military matters, including intelligence, due to constant threat of danger, I honestly think it's speculative to say how accurate any government's intelligence information ever really is. <BR/><BR/>As for the propoganda war, I realize my bias <I>for</I> Israel. Which means I might not see things with clear lenses. But I do think they are not as adept in the PR dept. Not just now, but for the past several decades, where the perception of Israel has become that they are the big mechanized Goliath, fighting "boys hurling stones". It is an image that the PA has worked hard to establish; and the AP reporters and photographers and CNN have been biased, coloring the rest of the world's biased perception to be against Israel.<BR/><BR/>Again, I encourage people to check out Stephanie Gutmann's "The Oher War". Just Google it.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>(By the way, am I just being especially dense today, or did you really mean to ask whether the ends ever justify the means rather than vice versa?)</I><BR/><BR/>I really did mean it the way I wrote it. It's a bit specific to previous conversations that I have had with Dan.<BR/><BR/>I have a bit of fascination with moral paradox and moral dilemma problems, and have been meaning to make a post on this.The WordSmith from Nantuckethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15937868119894243815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154713130087126042006-08-04T13:38:00.000-04:002006-08-04T13:38:00.000-04:00And while we're on the subject of nationhood, I fo...And while we're on the subject of nationhood, I found this article from BBC News interesting for what it says about the Lebanese consensus in that respect:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5245116.stm" REL="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5245116.stm</A>Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17992032099109290541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154711755048034502006-08-04T13:15:00.000-04:002006-08-04T13:15:00.000-04:00Fair comment, Wordsmith; I don’t think the general...Fair comment, Wordsmith; I don’t think the general public ever really knows how good or bad intelligence gathering is. However I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to compare pre-9/11 USA with Israel. The USA was complacent, having never really been attacked on its home soil, and their intelligence services weren’t co-operating particularly well. Israel has had a very different history in the last few decades, so I would imagine their security services are a better-oiled machine.<BR/><BR/>As for people being experts in running a propaganda war, I have heard plenty of Israeli Ministers and Ambassadors being interviewed in recent weeks and they are at least as bad as anyone else at painting the picture they want you to see, regardless of the facts.<BR/><BR/>(By the way, am I just being especially dense today, or did you really mean to ask whether the <I>ends</I> ever justify the <I>means</I> rather than <I>vice versa</I>?)<BR/><BR/>Dreadnought, remember that those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it! :o) Actually I am really just arguing semantics: If there is no 'absolute authority' (God) then there can be no 'absolute right' for a country to exist. That’s not to say though that countries can’t exist without divine sanction! A nation is really just an idea in people’s heads; it exists as long as there is a common consensus that it exists. However if that consensus starts to weaken then that nation begins to dissolve, regardless of what may be written in someone’s holy book – or Constitution! (For the record, I am not suggesting that Israel is likely to dissolve any time soon. Most Israelis I’ve met have a very strong consensus on that topic!)Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17992032099109290541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154681576168786802006-08-04T04:52:00.000-04:002006-08-04T04:52:00.000-04:00Liam, I am not really interested which countries m...Liam, I am not really interested which countries may have existed a thousand years ago. Israel has a right to exist because it is a member of the UN and is populated by a majority who desire its existence.<BR/>When you say no nation has a right to exist, do you include the US in this? I am pretty certain a large number of muslims would like to see its eradication.dreadnoughthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13488300673628548159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154663596085383542006-08-03T23:53:00.000-04:002006-08-03T23:53:00.000-04:00Liam,From what I've been able to ascertain on inte...Liam,<BR/><BR/>From what I've been able to ascertain on intelligence, traditionally, we've often underestimated the strengths of our enemies; intelligence is not as precise as we sometimes are led to believe, or are wont to romanticize about. We can certainly see our own intelligence failures, pre-9/11.<BR/><BR/>I do not deny that there are innocent casualties; but let's not forget that these people are experts in running the propaganda war. This includes staging casualties. An interesting book I still have not gotten through, is Stephanie Gutmann's "The Other War". <BR/><BR/>Although it's a bit too conspiratorial for me, Pallywood, which is making its rounds in the conservative blogosphere, does have some parts to it that I think can be substantiated.The WordSmith from Nantuckethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15937868119894243815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154658386979494902006-08-03T22:26:00.000-04:002006-08-03T22:26:00.000-04:00"I'm curious to know if there is ever a circumstan..."I'm curious to know if there is ever a circumstance when collateral damage is acceptable to you."<BR/><BR/>Thanks for asking WS. My answer would be that if we know there are civilians in the way, that we ought not bomb. This seems to me (and I'm not a lawyer) to be a violation of our law and of Just War Theory.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure you could arrange an outlandish what-if that I might agree with (What if a bomber had a nuke ready to blow up a city and said that he was going to blow it up unless you shot little Bobby...), but generally, no. I'd say it would be counter productive to security, peace, the law and our ethics.<BR/><BR/>But in general, I think Liam gave a very good answer. Currently, Israel seems to be killing many more civilians than "terrorists" and that is just a poor idea. IF you're going to wage a defensive war, do so intelligently. Killing civilians is not only immoral, but also unwise.<BR/><BR/>As to your question about "When the means ever does justify the ends."<BR/><BR/>Assuming you mean the "when the ends justify the means...", I could think of more in this case. If by lying, for instance, I could save a life, I'd lie. <BR/><BR/>But I wouldn't take an innocent life to save an innocent life and even the notion of taking an innocent life to save 10 innocent lives is questionable.<BR/><BR/>The problem is that we don't know what outcomes may result from our action. If we could know 100% for sure that by killing little Bobby, we could save an elementary school, then a case might be made, but we just don't know.<BR/><BR/>That's why the conservative/prudent person is extremely reluctant to go to war and certainly not unless faced with actual threats (ie, an invasion).Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154646828077928622006-08-03T19:13:00.000-04:002006-08-03T19:13:00.000-04:00Hello Wordsmith. What would I consider the ‘right’...Hello Wordsmith. What would I consider the ‘right’ response from Israel? A considerably higher degree of accuracy is the answer. Israel is the regional superpower, both in terms of military capability and intelligence gathering. Mossad has had years to build up files on Hezbollah, so I would expect them to know details of the significant people and places involved in the organisation and to be able to track them as they move. The Prestwick flights showed us that the US is keeping Israel well supplied with advanced precision weaponry. Yet still the Israeli army seems to kill fifty civilians for every terrorist they hit. I simply don’t believe that Israel is so inept at prosecuting a targeted offensive.<BR/><BR/>Also, effectively carpet-bombing a region is not a sensible course of action to deal with a terrorist threat. You may indeed get some of the guys who actually fire the rockets but a terrorist organisation is a nimble thing, so you’re unlikely to get all of them and you almost certainly won’t destroy the organisation behind the guys on the ground, nor the ideology which will recruit more of them. Instead you’ll destroy peoples’ homes and livelihoods, kill lots of civilians and build up a huge fund of hatred which will come back to haunt it in years to come. What does Israel hope to achieve by this?<BR/><BR/>Seamus, I think your reasoning is somewhat disingenuous about civilian casualties. How do you know when your neighbour is a terrorist? Terrorism is a covert activity where you only reveal yourself at the last possible moment? And if you think about it, if you had the urge to launch missiles against the neighbouring country, would you really go and live in the place you were going to fire them from? That doesn’t sound like a very bright move to me! As for the civilians not having all packed up and gone, surely Hurricane Katrina showed you that just because there is a good reason to evacuate an area, doesn’t mean everyone is able or willing to do so.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and Dreadnought, I’m confused how you can dismiss God as fiction but then state that Israel has an absolute right to exist. No nation has an absolute right to exist. Just look back through history to see how many nations have come and gone and count how many of those around now were around a thousand years ago.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17992032099109290541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154615891421844152006-08-03T10:38:00.000-04:002006-08-03T10:38:00.000-04:00Dan,I'm curious to know if there is ever a circums...Dan,<BR/><BR/>I'm curious to know if there is ever a circumstance when collateral damage is acceptable to you. When the means ever does justify the ends.The WordSmith from Nantuckethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15937868119894243815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12507451.post-1154517286283662422006-08-02T07:14:00.000-04:002006-08-02T07:14:00.000-04:00"Maybe you'd have a point if Israel was intentiona..."Maybe you'd have a point if Israel was intentionally killing "innocent people" instead of Hezbollah."<BR/><BR/>When one drops bombs on a neighborhood to kill a few bad guys and one knows that there are civilians in the neighborhood too, that IS intentionally killing innocent people.<BR/><BR/>I fully understand and believe that Israel would rather not kill innocents, but they are taking actions that we all know ARE killing them.<BR/><BR/>In this ill-conceived action thus far, it would seem that they've killed hundreds of people, the majority of which are not Hezbollah and a goodly number of which are children.<BR/><BR/>It is not acceptable and it is a stupid way for Israel to try to secure herself because it is going to lead to a LESS secure nation, not more.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.com